Hi all, first post on the nexus!
I recently joined but have been reading for some time.
I love the nexus, such helpful and sharing people

I've read a lot of the wiki and also the forum and done a fair bit of research,
I'm soon to be doing and extraction using a combination on q21q21's tek & BLAB.
Probably followed by a cleanup of the fumerate.

I have a question regarding the acid stage of q21q21's tek.
I don't have vinegar but i do have acetic acid glacial ~98%
q21q21's tek calls for 5% vinegar - do i need to simply dilute my acetic acid to roughly this percentage?
Or how to better substitute the vinegar for the ~98% acetic acid?
How important is the pH in this step?

from q21q21:
"This step utilizes the vinegar (acetic acid) to change the DMT-tannate molecules contained in the MHRB into DMT-acetate and in the process dissolve them into the surrounding vinegar. The PH of the dilute vinegar is ~2.5 so the mix will probably be around that but checking the PH shouldn't be necessary."

Another slightly less important question, just something i was wondering for my own understanding, is what is the actual function of the acid stage?

I was under the impression the DMT reacts with the acid to form a salt, in this case DMT-acetate, which dissolve in the solution. Is this correct? can anyone elaborate?
As i said I've read a lot on the nexus and understand most of the processes well. But not 100% on this stage.
Seems to match with the above text from q21q21's tek but im a little confused by the
"change the DMT-tannate molecules contained in the MHRB into DMT-acetate"
part.

Anyway, hope you guys can give me a hand, i'm sure you will, this is the nexus!

Thanks

Diluting your acetic acid is probably a good choice - glacial AA isn't anything you really want to be playing around with unless you know how to handle potentially dangerous reagents. It's a Hazard Class Level 8, which should tell you something.

Here's the Glacial Acetic Acid MSDS for anyone who's interested
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/acglac.htm

Also, from a chemical standpoint, if you used strait glacial AA, that may throw off the extraction - it seems fairly optimized as-is. That said, if you wanted to run side-by-side extractions with the GAA and the diluted AA, I'd be very interested to know the results.

Blessings
~ND

Thanks ND,

I was worried it may throw the extraction off somehow.
Just wasn't sure if diluting the AA to around 5-10% would be equivalent to using vinegar.
I could always get vinegar, it's not exactly big £££.
Just that i have AA already.
(Was also thinking that possibly by using dilute AA as opposed to vinegar I may avoid other components that may be present in shop-bought vinegar)

I could run side by side extractions, although I don't think I'm experienced enough in extracting to be confident that any difference in results could reliably be attributed to the acid stage.

Are you able to shed any light on the exact function of the acid stage for me?

Cheers
eddymcbrambram

Welcome!


It would be exactly equivalent. Most vinegar is 5% acidity. And you are correct in thinking your diluted GAA would help to avoid contaminants sometimes found in vinegar (assuming you used distilled water too.)

Also, check out cyb's Max Ion tek or Cybs' Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek too.

As far as the side-by-side extraction goes, you'd be better off practicing the original method - using your diluted acetic acid - a few times first.
It's not worth wasting good GAA if you're not properly acquainted with the extraction process.



The wiki is very helpful reading.

Basically, the DMT tannate is not particularly soluble, whereas the acetate is freely soluble (in water). The vinegar helps to make the DMT soluble in water, thus improving the extraction efficiency.

Thanks downwards

Ok that's good to know about the AA, Was pretty sure this was the case, just wanted to confirm before I wasted anything.



Yeah, i'm going to just work through the extraction using the original method, that's basically what i meant by
"I don't think I'm experienced enough in extracting to be confident that any difference in results could reliably be attributed to the acid stage. "



I've spent a lot of time reading the wiki, read a fair % of it.

I think I understand it, as my original post:
"I was under the impression the DMT reacts with the acid to form a salt, in this case DMT-acetate, which dissolve in the solution"
Was just the tannate that was confusing me I think. Is the above correct?
and it's just that the AA replaces the tannate to form acetate?
(can't remember the exact chemistry term, substitution? )

Cheers
eddymcbrambram

I think you've got the general idea there.


Metathesis, more-or-less. But that's slightly obscure. "Replacing tannate with acetate" is adequate and more widely understandable