You guys still aren't thinking of the contaminants in the aminata mushrooms. I just tried a batch and sterilized everything but bacteria in the powdered aminatas made it contam.

Would heating the aminatas in the oven not kill the spores or whatever makes the fungus grow inside the grape juice?

Hey guys, so I haven't posted in the Nexus much as it seems i'm incompetent with forums and I don't get where i'm allowed to post yet .....anyway

I was thinking for a long time, that due to hearsay about Amanita Pantherina being safer and more potent, the Grail, Fleece, and Bread experiments could perhaps be executed using the Panther cap as starting material.....

I personally have no way I can think of to obtain Panther caps, but if any of you gentlemen do, I would be immensely grateful if you'd be so gracious as to carry out such trials and post/report back to us on the results! I particularly remember Flower Witch saying she had worked with the Panther cap....perhaps you'd have some insight on this for us?

I'm also trying to understand still, how the fleece is different from just wine infused in a glass vessel....is one supposed to "eat" the actual fleece? or does he drink the liquid? Wouldn't that just be like the grail, only not eternally embedded with mycelium as the terracotta vessels supposedly would be?

You could try it. Might kill some of the actives depending on how hot it is. I have always heard that drying them in the oven often lowers potency.

I think the living bread and the sacred wine techs from the same pdf would be the most reliable for getting more from your amanitas. The grail sounds like it is usually hard to keep going for very long.

Pantherinas are not safer and they are less potent. They are much more dangerous them Muscaria actually. Muscaria are very easy for almost anyone to work with safely if they identify them correctly and use moderate doses, but Pantherina is easier to overdose from. There have even been some cases of people ordering Muscaria and not knowing they got Pantherina instead and overdosing (they can look similar when dried).

Pantherinas can still be used but require more personal knowledge of mushrooms. They also have more muscarine and less muscimol and muscimol is supposed to have a nicer effect - people describe it as "more spiritual" while Pantherinas have a more intoxicating or invigorating effect. Some call Pantherina more "speedy".

The fleece is a different fungus then the original mushroom - it has similar actives though. You do not eat the fleece though I suppose you probably could.... The mushroom itself is not able to grow indoors so you make the fleece in order to grow your own medicine. You extract actives from the fleece using juice or barley water ect then drink the infused drink you make. The fleece that grows in glass or on the grail is the same fleece. The grail is an easier method but less reliable, and the glass method takes more work but gives better results.

So fleece infused juice has different effects then, than Muscaria wine as it is a different fungus? Or are they close as makes no difference? Is the fleece essentially then, just a way of making wine without needing new mushroom every time? Like a living culture? It baffles me to hear that it is supposedly not Fly Agaric fungus....does this imply then that the Grails are also embedded with a different fungus altogether?

Has anybody here experienced a syngery between Muscarias and Pantherinas? Are Panther caps in your view worth dealing with? I heard that they had a higher ratio of negative (alkaloids?) to positive ones than Muscaria, but also that they had a greater number of good ones overall as well. I was hoping one could also convert the muscarine to muscimol to take advantage of the higher overall quantity of actives I had heard about...

The reason I come off as so interested in the Pantherina is because of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4eMCc8VdgE) in which the speaker briefly mentions that the Pantherinas were responsible in part for fables of ninjas in Japan being able to reach the top of walls and carry out extraordinary feats of physical ability by consuming the Pantherina specimens found in the pine Forests of Japan.......

The effects seem the same to me. It is technically a different fungus though. It is just a way to make more medicine from a little bit of amanita - basically a way to grow your own. The grail grows the same fleece as the glass jars.


Pantherina give you more of the physical stamina and even berserker like rage. Doesnt mean they are stronger - it means they have a different effect. People I know who eat both say the Muscaria are much nicer.

Never mix them unless you think mixing toxins is a good idea for your liver. You could give yourself liver failure if you are unlucky. Any recent deaths attributed to vendor amanitas were almost always pantherina (no muscaria deaths have occurred in over a century). They are much more dangerous to work with and muscaria gives you a more pleasant and insightful experience, so why not just stick to those? (unless you really research them well and feel really called to them I would skip them)

I guess tales of ninjas are cool if they are real, but tales of Jesus, Santa Claus, berserkers, soma, holy grail, ever lasting life, ambrosia ect are also pretty cool.

Fair enough

By the way, did you say you heated/decarboxylated your wine? This /is/ necessary, isn't it?

Does anyone here know how the Amanita/Fleece Wine compares to an alcohol extraction/tincture?


Would this be superior due to the water dilution potentiation aspect?

I never heated anything. I followed the exact instructions in this pdf: http://www.ambrosiasociety.org/files/herbofimmortality2.pdf

By "decarboxylated" you mean separating carbon-dioxide from the ibutonic acid to convert it to muscimol? If that is what you meant then no, heat is not the best method. The best method is curing your amanitas - just let them dry and cure for about 2-3 months. Heating them hurts potency. I also wouldnt say that it is necessary - just creates a different experience. I know people who prefer them fresh, though cured seems more desirable to me personally.

Usually wine and tinctures have different purposes. I know someone who uses an alcohol tincture of amanita to topically treat his sciatica - he says it works great. Since the actives are water soluble you dont need very much alcohol - just enough to preserve the medicine.

Many people dont want to drink alcohol and amanita at the same time because that could be hard on your liver. Not smart to mix multiple toxins even if one of them is fairly safe. Alcohol is one of the most dangerous toxins to mix with other toxins.

Muscarine cannot feasibly be converted to muscimol.

As far as Panther caps are concerned, it is far too easy to confuse them with Death caps...

For identification reason muscaria is considered safer, but subjectively I had nothing but good experiences with panther caps. Wasn't more nauseous or un comfortable than red caps and it was at times simply more powerful. Now muscaria can be as good or better at times. I thought too to try breed both types with this grail tek.

So you would say that it seems panthers are mostly just more potent by weight..?

So out of the methods outlined in the book, which would you all personally consider to be the most efficient way of obtaining the most end material with the smallest amount of Amanita to begin with?

Also, how susceptible to contamination is a terracotta grail really? Can it simply be stored in a sanitized, sealed glass container once the mycelium of the Amanita has "rooted"? It seems like an unnecessary hassle to need new material each time if you can simply refill the vessel and have more after a while....once could cycle them....

Supposedly the Sacred Wine is supposed to give the best yield, and then the Living bread after that.... The book explains which ones yield the most.

Terra cotta gets infected real easy. The Sacred Wine is a bit more stable and reliable.

Yes, I would say panthers can be generally a bit more potent by weight.
Now I did extract in cold water or organic grape juice and each time, the left over and pressed mushroom infected. So far no much luck making the holy grail ...

Did you dilute the wine? If so, what kind of ratio were you considering appropriate, if you don't mind me asking?

Could one make the wine with dried Muscaria cap "shake" or does it have to be made with prime specimens?

I was referring to this part from the Wine-making section of the Ambrosia Society's book:

End of Page 77 to beginning of Page 78

It says the that there is a "reacted" and "unreacted" phase of the wine....which by the way I hear of people "extracting" in 8 hours, even though the book says the wine has to sit for about a month or two.....supposedly, one is to cook the wine at 195F for a while and the wine gains potency 3-4 fold....this would be before even diluting....

Shake works fine. I diluted my wine 2 parts water to one part wince when I made it. Tasted good and was very pleasant.

Lately I have just been drinking Amanita tea though. Easier to make and maybe a little stronger.... I dont have everything to make the Sacred Wine fleece right now, and soaking an amanita in juice doesnt help you get more bang for your buck unless you are growing the fleece.

I see. You were talking about the "Sacred Wine" recipe and I was talking about the wine from the Holy Grail tech. I have not made the Sacred Wine recipe before. I only tried the grail tech from that book. I thought you were talking about heating the mushrooms, but you are talking about heating the wine.