http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3311680/Musician-Nick-Cave-wife-arrive-inquest-death-son-Arthur-15-died-falling-cliff.html



Im a really big fan of Nick Cave's music but pay little attention to goings-on in the media, so only recently heard if this tragic incident. Apologies if it was brought up here, I didn't see anything on it to fit this into.

The conversations this incident could catalyze are many and varied. This could be used as propaganda-fodder obviously, but could also be a tragic and unfortunate way to open conversations with children in our lives about what psychedelics are, how they can be used, and how to do them safely and responsibly.

Asking our children to abstain or to approach them with reverence is unrealistic and culturally dissonance, but perhaps a lot of suffering could be negated by opening these discussions. Some say ignorance is bliss, but suffering thrives on it.


[YOUTUBE] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SeDC8m9Jz9k [/YOUTUBE]
Something about embedding YouTube videos completely eludes all of my attempts to do so. Nor can I find the thread in which grateful one just posted a how-to in today. And waiting for my iPhone to reload every single time I try to edit is really ...Aargh! But this song comes to mind.

Well that is horrible news. RIP grinderman junior.

ive brought up the " casualtie rate" discussion on several forums.
especially in chat.

peeps think safety is a buzzkill

ive been pushing for a universal safety code for years,
social, psychological and bio safety rules for all trippers.

we see stuff like this cuz the dude had a fame connection/ sensational.
theres tons of car wrecks, busts, domestic evils. and emergency visits,
no one ever hears about.

is mayhem common, not really, but it happens.
enough trips, enough people, you will see a pattern of chaos.

should we stop?
of course not.
we just need to be more sophisticated about safety.
no one is looking out for us but us.

That's rough news...

But

15years old...Lsd...and Clifftop....

3 things that should never go together.


Chaos is everywhere, at all times...

Teach your children...'Teach Them'...

just more nonsense in our nonsensicle society.

chaotic universe and all but clearerly we could have abetter system in place; this one is litterally killing and enslaving and herding ppl. ppl say sheeple andthat but go to jail; your being herded ppl

overthrowing it will not work and would make things worse; revolution always leads to a worse empire

only way out is in; we need to build a society thats self sustaining then when this one starts falling ppl will fall into a new way, or they will start falling away when hey see hw much easier it can be. just with a little thought.



farm. it cacn still have technology but we have to be wise and get back to the basic first. tech should be focused on healthcare to begin with, then shelter, then food.

i should make a thread on this when my brains clearer

Very sad.

...These kids were young, and this really is a tragedy, though I think it speaks more to the responsible consumption side of the drug argument, these young kids did not know much about the compound, it sounds like they did not understand what to expect from the compound, and that they did not understand what a safe psychedelic environment really was, it also sounds like a quick Google search was all the guidance these kids had...

this is why REAL, accurate, information should be provided...people are going to use drugs, you can't stop that, so we may as well see to it that when people decide to use drugs they are safe doing it, most drug deaths involve unsafe behavior while intoxicated and have little to do with toxicity of the compound itself.

... though the second you start telling people how to safely take a drug your labeled as "promoting drug use".

in the prohibitionists and drug-war supporters eyes if people get hurt consuming a drug it's their fault, they have this attitude that you deserve the bad things that happen to you, and that true education is promotion...
(Another example of this is not allowing test kits at festivals)

Had these kids been consuming these compounds in the safety of their homes, having prior quality information regarding the compound and how to safely consume the compound, and with a sober individual monitoring the situation, this death most likely would not have occurred...

-eg

Aye, and it is just this practice of blaming the victim that can fuel the rebelliousness leading to self-destructive behavior. To some adolescent minds, willful ignorance (about hallucinogens) and righteous blame are an invitation to take the taboo head on.

I am intrigued by AH's interest in an "universal safety code" but worry that unless it is developed/promoted very carefully, it could become just something else to rebel against, and something more that establishes the fault of the victim.

Key here is that this kid was 15 years-old-- not capable of exercising judgement well enough to utilize hallucinogens. This makes it a crime, as far as I am concerned. I send my sympathy to Nick, who will no doubt be judged for the death of his own child.

the whole systemis out of whack; this is what i blame it on if there is something to blame.

if common sense was used in outr society things would make more sense.

go to jail and you see a vast number of people there for drugs.or for trying to get money somehow. when its something more "real" these people's action don't deserve imprisonment; they need help if anything.

but this is about control. this is why psychedelics are illegal in most countries. ppl fear losss of control. trying to wind something up as tight as you can will just snap it.

this whole scenario our species has come to is difficult to answer; because there is no specific answer.

its all a big game. i like games where everyone wins and no one gets hurt.

IMO the war on drugs killed this boy own handed, it has led to very important factors.

Just as a clarification: I do think responsibility for this falls heavily on the adult individual that provided a 15 year old (or other minor) with the LSD, and I do think of this as a crime, *but* I do NOT advocate prison nor do I have a love affair with any nation's legal system.

Truth be told, I feel partially responsible for this tragedy. This is my system, and I am part of it every day. Systems aren't alive and can't make decisions, people do.

Tragedies happen, and while I think it's very natural response to say "what went wrong, what can we fix so this never happens again," I don't think we need to in this case. I'm sure that, even if we totally did away with the War on Drugs and changed our whole cultural and political relationship with LSD, the odd teenager would die doing it like this. Accidents happen, we'll never be able to stop all suffering.

Blessings
~ND

A good sitter could have prevented this.

I can relate, I've been in less than safe settings in life and I'm glad nothing happened to me and I learned from it. Please be safe people! Hope the family is able to cope with the lost in the best way possible.

I'm sure of that too.

Despite that the WOD is a turbo mishap generator and call their own spin-offs motivation to carry on more and more, this situation is so absurd. A politic that feeds itself with suffer and corpses.

That said, the complete opposite to suddenly shelf all drugs freely at i.e. walmart is no better solution IMO.

Confirm what is said already about EDUCATION.
Suggestion: get a drug-of-choice license after succeeding a course (at the Entheogenic University Mk.2 ?) + a Drs. agree for psych compatibility, and buy with that license registered and pure compounds officially at your dispenser. A system that is not closed, not open, but depends on information/knowledge, just like any other license to involve in a responsible sensitive conduct. It will not kill the black market but take away a heap, and the black market will have at least competition from pure compounds.
I realize the boy would not potentially obtained such license (prolly too young) but the knowledge of the course would be floating around and sprout in some young heads nonetheless, what is now obscured will become general knowledge.
People are put off with "control" but then I really like to hear of alternative schemes.

Just needs to be like Sex Education in school, doesn't it? If you're a parent, you don't want to think of your 14 year old daughter having sex but far better she's got the facts so that:
1. she understands the circumstances in which she can say yes or no
2. she understands when definitely to say no e.g. some middle aged guy
3. if she says yes then she's not going to end up with an STI or worse
4. if she says yes then she's not going to end up pregnant

Avoiding the issue and pretending things aren't going to happen never causes anything but pain when the obvious does actually happen as it's bound to at some point.

Related to education and information...

This from newscom.au:

The inquest, held at Woodvale Crematorium, heard the 15-year-old and a friend shared three tabs of LSD on the afternoon of his death after reading about side effects on the internet.
...
In a summary of the statement by the unidentified boy who took the Class A drug with the youth, Detective Constable Vicky Loft told the court: “Arthur was hesitant but said if they were worrying about things it would have an effect on the trip and make it a more negative experience.
“They decided to take one together at the same time. They took a tablet each, placed it on their tongue and waited for the effects to start.”

It seems some education was at hand, though it's hard to tell how good that information source was. It is also possible that there was an error in judgement. Some folks will make the wrong decisions even when provided the right information.

It seems to me a matter of culture. I mean, our culture has Eeefer Madness in its DNA, as a friend says, and the shame and guilt that has been placed around drug use is ridiculous. Most of us inthis community, at this time in our lives, are using DRUGS to benefit ourselves. We respect them, hold theminreverence for what they've done for us. This is a special relationship we have.

And even here, and i speak for myself, there's a level if shame around hedonistic use, of psychs or other drugs. I'm not sure how to address that other than being a voice for conscientious use and a decent person to reflect it.

As far as legalization, nottwo, the model I've always seen as most easily and reasonably implemented is multi-level, with flat out recreational OTC sale of marihuana and possibly eventually mushrooms, but more likely with psychs available through yes, licensed certified therapists. As far as "hard" drugs, a system like we currently use for methadone in the states, with a patient who presents with a demonstrable history of addiction being supplied to their need.

God only knows when that lightning bolt of reason will hit though. Until then the only real way to avoid tragedy with our children is to TEACH them according to your heart and will, and let them make their own decisions. Don't wait for school to do it, that's a sure route to failure.

Again, I have none , so I can easily talk all I want, but I was one and know that left to their own devices, children will often choose the wrong thing.

Sorry for rambling.

Wish peace to the family.

as much fun as it is to "turn peeps on"
its not a hobby for everyone.

there are people who react badly.

part of our responsibility is to know when to
Not turn people on.

the vast majority, dont have unlimited resources with trips.
therefore many have a limited frame of reference on the potential downsides.

those who do have decades of supply and experience, are more catious,
as they have seen the potential for mayhem.


its easy to trip a few dozen times, and declare oneself a guide / guru,
and start feeding everyone in sight.

it much harder to have fed thousands over decades,
and then reconcile the downsides rationally................

the ethics of this and other episodes,
is part of what led me to retire beyond grow research.

hallucinogens are powerful stuff.
we really need to think more.
sometimes " good vibes" isnt enough...............


dont misunderstand me.
i absolutely believe in power drugs, guns, fast cars/ motorcycles ,
booze and cigs and wild sex.
( usually not all at once......oh who am i kidding? im anne halonium ,
the poster girl for global hallucinogenic mayhem, take it from me, its NOT always rosy!)
ill suggest to ignore the casualty rate on those things, is just flat pollyanna.
we should strive for a full spectra rational point of view, both good and bad.

When I was seventeen I experienced a psychotic breakdown and hospitalization as a result of taking too much LSD or rather smoking Cannabis in combination with LSD.

I survived myself thanks to being in a place where my family were able to get me help and was physically restrained. I could have killed myself but I could also -lost to the delusion that people were coming to kill me- have quite easily killed other people in a deluded attempt to defend myself.

Many young kids in the psychedelic community often simply don’t understand that in one way, or another, a substance like LSD can quite easily drive you insane and kill you.

This is the most tragic death imaginable because it’s only a stupid mistake made by a curious young child. A vicious and circular self-fulfilling prophecy whereby one fears death so much that in an attempt to escape it, he ends up walking right into it.

The one thing that got me through similar experiences later in life (cannabis and a psychedelic flashing me right back) was that I had learned from the last experience that the biggest mistake of all when delusional and panicking like that is to get up and try to move/escape. The poor victim ends up literally trying to run away and escape from what is happening to him within his very own mind.

DMT is a far safer substance than LSD is for a number of reasons (duration etc.) but one big reason paradoxically is that DMT is so powerful. You cannot get up and move and so do not end up harming yourself or getting into any trouble. Of course though do it in a very safe place, no mountains or cliffs, fires etc.

I often hear it repeated that psychotic breakdowns only really happen to people who have a family history of mental illness.

What these people often fail to realize though is that irresponsible doses of any psychedelic can produce psychosis and delusions.

Delusions are the most dangeorus thing of all as if you believe somebody is coming to kill you, you will experience somebody coming to kill you, and will naturally react accordingly.

Psychedelics will never be legal because these tragedies, suicides, homicides and accidental deaths are always going to occur again and again when certain people are not careful. They are very much like dangerous weapons, which is not to say they cannot be used safely but should be used only by responsible adults.

I am not meaning to preach and cringe at myself when I say that, and read it back to myself but so many young people out there dont yet realize how young they are. I know I certainly didnt.

Take care everybody.

And even if they are careful, death comes by times.
But same goes for sofas, people die of sitting too much in the sofa.
Thousands of injuries and hundreds of deaths, each year in the European Alps mountains, hikers, sports, etc...
There will be someone who died while watching a mushroom.
The excuse for prohibition because of casualties is Complete Utter Nonsense.

The real killer is lack of information - education, the rest is natural flow.

Maybe so, though I never spoke either in favor or against prohibition. The point was that they will never be legalized because these tragedies will always occur. What has happened has happened before and will happen again.



Sofas dont cause psychosis though, which is dangerous not only to the person himself but also for other people around him. A psychotic breakdown whether you die or not is also an experience I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy.

I would warn people to be careful in the alps as well!

The point I was making was only that stories like this young kid should serve as a reminder that these substances can be very dangerous. I am not on some anti drug moral crusade, and use psychedelics myself after all!