Through my experience of sharing the spirit molecule to others, it seems as though the more intelligent and more educated ones have had more meaningful life altering experiences, whilst those that dropped out of middle school for example only seem to get a high from it. And yes, I didn’t believe it was possible, but I have seen first hand a few people abuse even pure white DMT like it was cocaine or something, doing big piles all night, just laughing and saying “Whoah!” and “Wow”, just having a good time and carrying on like it was nothing. If I did a 10th of what they were doing I’d be altered for life and done for the night.


So I guess what I am wondering is if others have noticed this same phenomena?


I would think that it doesn’t matter if one had zero education, that the experiences would be exactly the same, but after administering God particles to enough different groups, it seems as though the more intelligent only need a 30 mil dose to realize that there is Eternity in every Moment, Divinity in every Particle, and that all is One Organism, and that the less intelligent take dose after dose after dose (in a GVG with me lighting it) and only obtain a high and say Wow. Hmmm? Is an interpretation element being involved?


This is so confusing, especially seeing people first hand abusing and wasting big piles of it for the sake of fun without getting their ass kicked from the Universe. And every single one of them had little intelligence, at least compared to our US academic systems.

It's possible that some people could just have a harder time (or no interest in) finding meaning in things. Not everyone cares about the bigger philosophical ideas. There are some people who I've had conversations with about the nature of reality and conciousness and even though I'm bringing up some profound points, I just get blank stares and basically "yeah, but who cares".

This may transfer into Dmt experiences as well. Does it mean they are less intelligent. Maybe some of them, they are definitely more limited in their thinking. Then again, if I could precribe any one experience to open their mind up, dmt soul probably be it.

This quote kind of says it in a funny way...Although that said there is of course many different types of "intelligence", so I hate to make any generalizations about it. I guess I'd rather use the word awareness rather than intelligence... but even that is very difficult to generalize about

And obviously upbringing and conditioning (and decades of the 'war on drugs' ) are huge factors influencing how people approach, experience and interpret these things... and ultimately what they get out of it, regardless of their innate intelligence... So the factors are pretty complex.

I agree with uni.

I have also seen, heard of, come to understand that dmt effects certain "types" of people differently. The most common scenario is those that aren't seeking any spiritual path or dont have, let's say, my personal mindset that I have going into the experience.

Those that didn't ever get any kind of message or meaning from it I asked what intention did they have going in. Consistently with those having just a light show of an experience answered "I just went in to to see what happens". Or something along those lines.

It's like they don't know something that I know subconsciously. Some how some of us just naturally speak the dmt language and are capable of navigating more than just the visual. Like uni says, something about awareness. Which makes sense because I feel I am aware of much more than what most sheeple seem to see in life, in my self, and in psychedelics.

Could it be plausible that the deeper one delves into academia, the more certain ones understanding of life, patterns and everything becomes; only when confronted with something as profound as the dmt experience does the great intellectual house of cards fall down. And for someone who hasn't had as broad an education as you would get graduating a 4 year university course, there is less of a structure to topple over into profundity.

I think it has to do more with openness to new experiences, than 'intelligence,' which is a vague enough term as to be effectively meaningless. Unless we've defined our terms, I think this might be a difficult conversation.

People who are open to new experiences (as measured by the Big 5 Personality Survey) tend also to be more curious and think more deeply about things - these are exactly the kind of people who tend to pursue things like higher education, not because they're smarter, they just enjoy that kind of thinking more.

Someone who is less open-minded is less likely to think deeply about the experience they're having or ask questions like 'why' or 'how,' which can be catalysts towards getting more out of your psychedelic experiences.

There are some very dumb people who smoke a lot of DMT and talk a LOT about 'consciousness,' 'spirits,' and make all kinds of bizarre, unsubstantiated claims (just wander over to the Reddit 'psychonaut' thread to see what I'm talking about). There are plenty of very intelligent people who have absolutely no interest in DMT or other psychedelics and find the experience to be pointless (I know a bunch of them, they've tried it, felt it was 'meh,' and went back to doing physics or math).

Blessings
~ND

^This.

I feel it my duty to remind what Robert Anton Wilson said, "Groups are grammatical fictions; only individuals exist, and each individual is different."

It's convenient to talk as if there are kinds of people, that's why we do it, but there aren't. And it's a dangerous habit because it sets up a sense of separation that can become unconscious and cause us grief. Very tricky.

Everyone reacts to these things differently, in my experience. Like Nathanial said, some people seem more open than others. I don't know if I can make any generalizations beyond that.

I have known people who were "caught by surprise," and were traumatized by profound experiences they weren't looking for, so there's that too.

it could probably be compared to different people admiring a piece of art. Some people could spend hours examining a painting/sculpture/piece of music, thinking about all the subtleties and meaning behind each note or brushstroke while others might just look at it and say "cool" or "I could paint that".

Is the second group less intelligent? They seem to have a much more limited capacity in this particular area of thought. Intelligence is a vague word that describes a kind of mix of your mental capabilities. Some things like memory retention and problem solving ability, can bring up your overall "score". I think attention to detail and the inclination for deep thought also increases your score.

The second group may have strengths in other areas, but being unable or uninterested in deep thought is a limitation in my opinion.

I think that it is very difficult to gauge the validity of another persons experience unless one happens to be inside the head of said person and having the same experience and have shared all their experiences in life leading up to that moment. Some people are not wordy enough to articulate these things to another person. Perhaps one advantage of being a less educated person is that they may be more of a blank canvas and perhaps come up with novel ideas and meanings. Also it can take up quite a lot of time after the fact in order to process certain aspects.



Disembodied, this is probably not the case, but when i read the above quote this vision popped into my head of you stubbornly standing over one of your less intelligent friends, relentlessly dosing them while shouting " What the hell is wrong with you you damned halfwit??? Your"e not stopping til you understand that all is one and there is divinity in every particle!!! "

I understand the generalization and the bias I have stated by calling some intelligent and others not, I guess I find that those capable of deep thought to be more intelligent IMO.

I was not standing over those "less intelligent" and trying to make them see the Universe, I just noticed that those of my friends who had dropped out in 8th, 9th grade for example, every single one of them, got nothing from the experience, or only a fireworks display as they called it, while others in grad school got the whole grand design shabang thing first try. The less educated also tended to abuse it, doing piles and piles to my dismay and almost horror, while the more educated only needed one dose of 45 mils say.

I do find it the strangest that some have done it, said "oh well", and moved on never being interested again, they found it not even that interesting. I think a lot of it has to do with if one believed the experience to be actually occurring, like the dimensions and entities to be real, or a pure hallucination.

"I feel it my duty to remind what Robert Anton Wilson said, "Groups are grammatical fictions; only individuals exist, and each individual is different.""

I like that. Reminds me of something Bruce Lee said:
"Do not believe in styles; styles separate man...
Under the sky, under the heaven, we are but one family."

I think a good point would be to mention a different way to think about intelligence in our context would be the individual's relationship to his or her imagination. A great many wise folk have made more or less the same following statements. To put this into perspective, consider these two quotes: (they are word for word from two completely separate minds)

"The most powerful force of transformation in the universe is the human imagination".
We can all hear Terence Mckenna saying it in his own irish tongue.
"Without a doubt the most powerful force in the universe is intelligence".
I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Ray Kurweil, but he is also a great giant who resides in the domain of information technology.

I personally believe intelligence and imagination in the aforementioned context of those two authors are indistinguishable. How does this relate to the question of intelligence in a psychedelic experience?
Well, if we grant that intelligence and imagination are so interrelated as to be thought selfsame, than we can therefore say that to the extent one's imagination is catalyzed by a substance, or equation, or sunset, than I think it is reasonable to call that equivalent to the expansion of intelligence. Or, if you'd like, you can turn it just the other way around. To the extent one's intelligence is catalyzed by a substance, or equation, or sunset, than I think it is reasonable to call that equivalent to the expansion of imagination. As someone here mentioned, people who are more open-minded to new experiences, and are in the habit of being curious asking questions such as how or why, these are obviously candidates for a harrowing mind-expanding experience with a psychedelic substance. But for people who are lacking in imagination, I think it's safe to say that this will generally correspond to (maybe not a lack of intelligence except if it means the following), but to a lack of the application of the mind to probe into things. And the only cure for that is a megaton injection of curiosity. And if you can't get curious, well, to each their own.

I love that image you posted with Mckenna, "It's a consciousness expanding drug! If you don't have any consciousness, it can't expand it!" Hahaha, totally.

In a nutshell, I agree with you DisEmboDied. I think you're right that one simply "notices" a general correspondency between intelligence and being interested in all the universe's mysteries.

I should mention also that in Tibetan Buddhism, specifically in a book written by Alexandria David-Neel called The Secret Oral Teachings in the Tibetan Buddhist Sects there is described three kinds of intelligence in human beings. (I place this here for your own inspection.) According to that book, it works like this: (I've summarized in my own words.)
On the first level of intelligence, you provide them the jeweled keys with which to unlock eternity, and they cannot even see the keys you've just given them.
On the second level of intelligence, you provide them the jeweled keys with which to unlock eternity, and they've grasped the keys and are thrilled they are making progress, but cannot seem to find the door in which to insert the diamondal keys.
On the third level of intelligence, you provide them the jeweled keys with which to unlock eternity, and they end up returning your jeweled keys back to you, for they successfully grasped the keys, found the door, unlocked it with the jeweled keys, walked through, turned around, realized there never was a door, laughed their ass off like a child at play with the colored balls of forever, and came back after while with a shiny new glimmer in their eye -
and they look at you and say: here's back your useless "jeweled keys" you ole trickster! And you somehow know they found the secret, they found themselves. And no more is said between you two on the subject. You somehow both realize you have nothing to teach the other.

I am not saying we are each born into some level. I personally think the prime ingredient, as I mentioned, is inquisitivity. Intelligence/Imagination evolve naturally from the seed of curiosity. I think the best way you can get someone over that mountain that appears to be struggling to find their way up is to plant that seed. As intelligence/imagination evolves, you will know what to do (if it means providing them some keys) in the same way that someone in your own life in some indirect way (somehow always at the right time, right?) had provided you the keys to surmount that mountain when it was your time.

consider this. maybe intelligent people are just attaching meaning that "less intelligent" people aren't being led to do.

its all relative

Hey, but honestly what does dropping out of middle school have anything to do with intelligence ? I think a dmt experience has everything to do with one's mindset and attitude and nothing to do with intelligence. The more brainwashed one is, the more explosive the experience will be in terms having his/her believes questioned. But for a person who doesn't have any sort of principles and is a free thinker the experience might be easier to handle ?
I'm a firm believer in one of the organized religions, every time i do dmt first thing that comes to my mind is fear, then i see my dad' face and if he would approve of what i do. I'm en elctrical engineer by qualification, i think for me it wouldn't make any difference if i went to school or never knew what a school meant.

To each their own, i and my brother smoked the same thing, exact same amount, same place, same time....i must believe he had a mental orgasm so to speak, very peaceful, very white and clam and green. For me it was horrifying, scary, i felt like i was in hell.

DMT shatters everything we have come to believe in !

I got expelled (after being suspended 9 times and being class president) in 7th grade, moved back home (place I was living which is where I'm living again now is awful on many levels) got botted out of 8th grade during first month due to legal problems , some pretty serious charges, developed a ridiculous dxm addiction, got put back into school later on in the year and kicked out again, had a weird summer, went into highschool (9th grade) , left again during first month because I went to jail (2 months) and then went to group homes ( 2months), back home and then booted again for the final timeand went to multiple mental hospitals and group homes and one place that was very formative in retrospect but I despised it at the time; an island with no electricity where we worked half the day and went to school half the day. I learned more there about life and educational markler than anywhere else. All the other grouphomes schools were a joke; busy work to keep the kids from complainging to much and under control. I was essentially staff member there.

Point is I didnt have much of a formal education; my IQ when measured at 17 to get an idea of where I'd fit back in in highschool (was going to new grouphome which I got the boot at 1 I scored 143. Well I hadn't been in school very much and when I was I was more concerned with joking around .

Everything is relative, any amount of education is just babble information that you can remember. The road to wisdom is UNlearing; you already got it inside of you.

As far as organized religions go, that might be a great thing to practive your unlearning.

i dont think that what you take from the experience has anything to do with intellegence, i think it has to do with how you are wired.

I think that peoples experiences differ due to subconscious differences that are not apparent to the individual. I think its similar to the way some people, intellegent and stupid, gravitate toward religion and some people, intellegent and stupid, see it as nonsense.

i think that people who see the experience as spiritual are just wired to do so and that is why it unravels in that manner and doesnt really have to do with the DMT experience being spiritual.
People who see it as fireworks do so not because they are missing something or cant comprehend certain aspects of the experience, but because it is just fireworks to them and nothing more, more isnt taken because nothing more is there to be taken.

I dont think DMT gives you what you need, i think it gives you what your wired to get.

and fortunately for me DMT gave me everything i ever wanted from an experience, which is nice

I really like what 3rdI wrote, more realistic IMHO.

I would add that lack of intelligence is more connected with the fact it's difficult to understand it is possible others can have a different kind of experience (or feeling) in front of the same stimulus or molecule.

Well said 3rdI. Yes, let's all take a moment to remember Schultes and his "wiggly lines."

I can definitely see and agree with this, especially the more and more reports that i've read over the years.

I've said in other threads (not particularly to this topic) that I think there's many variables - personal physiology, geography of that individual, their culture while growing up, their hopes, fears, dreams, their highs, their lows, all their various interactions that have totaled up until this point to shape them into who they are currently, etc, etc. Possibly even unseen factors? All these things imo add up/take away; they all contribute in some fashion as to how you receive the experience and how it unfolds.

But yeah, imo I think intelligence has little to do with it. If I had to say that anything other than what i said above had to do with how you receive the experience id go out on a limb and say that your innate awareness of the present moment and how efficiently you can tune yourself into it, without all the baggage of mental chatter, can really begin to open you up into letting the experience flow through you, unimpeded. I could be wrong with this, but that's how it feels to me alot of the time.

In my experience, attention has more to do with it than intelligence.. And where we put our attention has a lot to do with what we're wired to get. Anyone can see pretty lights; We're wired up to pay attention to our visual stimulus, and when DMT hits those nerves the sparks are going to fly...
But are we all wired up to pay great attention to our energy and emotions, to our dreams and to the fleeting bits of wondrous promise that lie in the furthest corners of ecstasy and revelation? Not hardly.

Intelligence is a really subjective sort of thing... Some fabulously smart individuals fall remarkably short when it comes to simple reasoning and common sense. I don't think the qualities in question are quite so simple to name as that.