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A Guide to Skeptical Tripping Options
 
Nathanial.Dread
#1 Posted : 9/23/2015 10:09:11 PM

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Bless this article. Bless it's little heart. I feel like this should generate good discussion here.

Original Post can be found here:
http://psychedelicfronti...skeptics-guide-tripping/

Psychedelic Frontier wrote:
Trips are like dreams. A genuine insight may bubble up from deep in your subconscious, handily solving a problem that your sober mind found intractable. Or you might emerge with absolute nonsense, the product of synapses firing without the guidance of logic and consistency.

You don’t take your dreams as absolute truth upon waking, and psychedelics should be no different. It’s crucial to think critically about which lessons to take back into consensus reality, and which to leave behind.

Many psychonauts spread their personal beliefs and speculations as though they were fact. Sometimes they take an ancient myth, like Amazonian animism, and dress it up in the new-age language of spirits, energies, and vibrations. “Mother Ayahuasca,” they say, “is the plant world’s way of communicating with us, raising us to a higher vibration.”

Other times they’ll offer a testable scientific hypothesis, but disguise it as established fact. A good example is the myth that DMT is responsible for dreaming, and is released when a person dies. These are interesting ideas, but when presented as Unquestionable Truth they limit rather than liberate us.

The desire to share is natural and well-meaning — after a profound psychedelic experience, people want to communicate their new “knowledge” to others. Whether the insight concerns aliens and discarnate entities, human history and genetics, half-baked quantum theories, or the imminent apocalypse, the uncritical explorer rushes to share it with anyone who will listen.

This is why I want to encourage skepticism in the psychedelic community. Some psychedelic realizations are truly insightful. But if we’re honest with ourselves, we will admit that others are just flights of fancy — the subconscious mind taking liberties just as it does in dreams. There’s no need to discard these experiences altogether, but we can regard them as good memories rather than life lessons.

Paradoxically, if we give the psychedelic experience too much credit, we will undermine its potential for providing real insight. Tripping will then make us gullible and irrational, suckers taken in by our own imagination. And that’s exactly how psychedelic enthusiasts are often perceived.

Terence McKenna is a great example. Although I admire the man’s piercing criticisms of modern society, some of his “theories” — in particular those concerning Timewave Zero, Stoned Apes, and an extraterrestrial mushroom intelligence — are nothing but conjecture and fantasy. His presentation is persuasive, but one gets the impression that a wordsmith as eloquent as McKenna could make a case for any theory he wanted. My complaint is not really with McKenna — who promoted questioning, and never claimed to have a monopoly on the truth — but with fans who take his speculations as gospel. We must not confuse constructed narratives with reality, however tantalizing they may be. Skepticism demands more.

In my opinion, the most personal realizations usually produce the most value. They tend to be more relevant to one’s daily life than revelations about parallel dimensions, conspiracy theories, plant spirits, or astral travel. If the psychedelic experience is a voyage through the internal landscape of Self, it stands to reason that any wisdom gained will pertain to that realm, not the universe at large. The drug is a chemical tool, not a direct line to Objective Truth.

Think about it. Unless you’re a particle physicist in need of a creative jumpstart, an LSD session is unlikely to help you discover anything about the fabric of reality that stands up to scrutiny. It may feel otherwise — you may be absolutely convinced that your astral form has visited distant realms of heaven and hell, trawled through Pure Knowledge and Pure Love, and returned with lessons for humanity — but really, it’s all you. Other people explore their own internal realms, different from yours but equally valid.

If the psychedelic experience is a voyage through the internal landscape of Self, it stands to reason that any wisdom gained will pertain to that realm, not the universe at large.

Even when many users of a drug report similar experiences, as with DMT, we shouldn’t be surprised; our neurological wiring is fundamentally the same. Of course a drug will affect similar creatures in similar ways. This hardly constitutes evidence that DMT is a portal to an alternate dimension populated by intelligent “machine elves.” It’s a novel hypothesis (perhaps even a testable one), but nothing more. Occam’s razor would suggest that the basis for these experiences is neurological, not ontological. (See James Kent and Teafaerie for in-depth critiques of the DMT entity phenomenon.)

As Sam Harris says, “we should be very slow to make conclusions about the nature of the cosmos based upon inner experience — no matter how profound these experiences seem.” So set aside, for a moment, the immediacy, the stark realness of your psychedelic trips. Try to strip away your emotional biases and examine your insights under the microscope of cold logic. Trips are characterized by wild creative bursts, unfettered imaginative powers, and non-linear thought patterns — all good reasons why they should not be taken as objective glimpses of truth.

An experience can be meaningful even if it is internally generated, of course. I would never dismiss the psychedelic experience as “just a chemical reaction” — after all, the same could be said of love and compassion, not to mention consciousness in general. But if we apply rigorous critical thinking as part of the integration process, we will emerge with practical lessons rather than ideology.

Consider how easy it is to fool the brain. If a neurologist applied electrical impulses to different areas of your brain, you would experience various sensations – hot, cold, bliss, paranoia, and so on. You might even hallucinate images or voices.

These are genuine sensations, indistinguishable from the real thing. While the neurologist plays your brain like an instrument, you would report that the room is very hot, or that music is playing nearby. And you would be dead wrong.

So we know from neuroscience, and from our dreams, that incredibly realistic experiences can be conjured without any external stimulus whatsoever. The human mind is easily hoodwinked.

This is what psychoactive drugs do — by perturbing the brain, they fundamentally change our perceptions and cognition. Some, like caffeine and amphetamine, can have beneficial effects on one’s focus and performance. Psychedelics, too, can improve many of our mental capacities and should never be dismissed as mere intoxicants.

But let’s be honest: psychedelics can also cause delusional thinking. Unwary explorers are likely to confuse self-generated ideas with “reality,” sometimes long after the trip has ended. Sober minds make this error too — perception is highly subjective, a process fraught with bias and projection even at the best of times — but the deepest divers of consciousness are especially vulnerable.

This may not be a popular opinion, but the risk of delusion is even greater in a religious context. Although an entheogenic ceremony like ayahuasca can be very helpful in navigating these realms, it also comes loaded with centuries of mythological baggage. Many spiritual tourists come back from Peru gushing about Mother Ayahuasca and other “plant teachers” — not as experiences or concepts, but as autonomous sentient beings.

I’m willing to entertain the hypothesis, but I don’t think the version of reality offered by Peruvian curanderos is the only one we should consider. It is just one cultural narrative, and there are thousands. The ayahuasca mythos makes a tempting reality tunnel — it’s ancient and esoteric, “authentic” and therefore hip, and seemingly offers passage to a bustling spirit world in an age of dreary materialism. But the allure of this mythology should make us more skeptical. As the history of religion shows, we are easily wooed by romanticized versions of reality — not because they are grounded in evidence, but because they are attractive.

It’s been said that the shamanic belief system acts as an anchor, helping to ground the entheogenic experience. Just remember that anchors can also keep us from moving forward.

We all have delusions, squares and trippers and psychedelic toe-dippers alike. Our brains are wired with cognitive biases that skew our perception of reality. Perhaps most notable is the Confirmation Bias: in order to reinforce our internal model of the world, we ignore contrary evidence and cling to ideas long after they are discredited.

Psychedelics can demolish these delusions. They remind you that it’s okay not to know. Used carelessly, however, they will just replace your delusions with other delusions. That’s part of the ego’s job — to fill the vacuum of uncertainty with a best guess, even if its best guess is irrational. It takes a dedicated explorer to avoid this trap.

Let your trips keep you humble. The emptiness of not-knowing is valuable. Don’t race to fill the well of uncertainty; fortify it.

I don’t want to diminish the value of psychedelics as learning tools — quite the opposite. With their help, I’ve experienced feelings I didn’t know were possible, and discovered parts of myself that I never knew existed. We’ve all engaged in metaphysical musings, pondering the fabric of space-time and human nature, perhaps gaining a deeper understanding of our place in the cosmos. Many of us have experienced a sense of “oneness” or samadhi that defies language. These experiences cannot be taken away from us, and a dose of skepticism does not invalidate them.

It’s when the insights come in the form of extravagant or unwarranted claims that we must stand guard. And even in the cases of hyper-dimensional entities and parallel universes, we don’t need to dismiss them entirely. We just need to accept that these are hypotheses, and weigh them against other hypotheses using available evidence. That is the scientific and, I believe, most fruitful approach to psychedelic insights.

I’m not suggesting self-censorship. Let’s continue to share our trip experiences, even the most outrageous ones! But please, resist the urge to place your beliefs on the pedestal of Absolute Truth. When two people with very different worldviews collide in conversation, they can either clash violently, or they can explore each other’s perspectives with curiosity and compassion. When we present our beliefs as just that — beliefs — we can engage other people without trying to convince, convert, or threaten them.

Trips, like dreams, can be both informative and deceptive, speaking a language of symbols and emotions. And like dreams, there is a middle path between cherishing them as divine revelations and ignoring them altogether.

Think of the trip as an excavation of the subterranean realms of Self. Don’t pile the wheelbarrow blindly with every rock you find. Apply reason like a sieve, sifting gems of wisdom from the debris. Gather and polish those gems, and over time, you might just end up with treasure.


Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 

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fatherseb
#2 Posted : 9/23/2015 10:58:40 PM

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Thanks for posting.
Thought into the same direction more often lately. It is a personal experience. Culture plays a role I guess. Seems human. We prefer a nice story that we can tell. But at least for me the story doesn´t fit that often, even when the personal outcome is the same and beneficial indeed.
 
DansMaTete
#3 Posted : 9/23/2015 11:46:49 PM

[insert something smart/deep here]


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OMG, someone managed to read my mind and picked up all my messy thinking, organized them and wrote this ^^^^^.
This kind of thing (and few others Smile ) is why i love the Nexus.


Thanks Nathanial.Dread Thumbs up
« I love the smell of boiling MHRB in the morning »
 
Redguard
#4 Posted : 9/23/2015 11:50:23 PM
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It's a good article. As someone who tends to lean towards a mystical understanding of my experiences I find skepticism keeps me grounded in this reality. That being said, throwing skepticism out the window and diving head over heals into the abyss can lead to some exquisitely intense experiences Pleased IMO our beliefs control to a large degree our perception of reality and to be skeptical of an experience when we are experiencing it lessons the intensity. I find it much better to worry about the finer details when you come down from the experience.
“I am that gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long …arousing and persuading and reproaching…You will not easily find another like me.”-- Socrates
 
Jees
#5 Posted : 9/24/2015 6:37:53 AM

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Count me in Thumbs up

Yet the writer seems to have a great interest in protecting the tricky business of "The Truth".
 
inaniel
#6 Posted : 9/24/2015 11:45:40 AM

mas alla del mar


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I can't say I was very impressed with the article. Reads as though it were written by an arrogant freshman presenting an argument against... i'm not certain who it is presented against actually. Dogmatic psychedelic users? I don't personally know any such people so I'm not able to identify in that regards.


He seems to take a few truths for granted himself, for instance: Psychedelic realizations being our 'subconscious taking liberties,' Psychedelics and dreaming are similar enough so as to compare a few times. He make an argument against a man, Mckenna, who didn't take himself seriously. Nicely done.


The most offensive part was the reference to 'amazonian animism', and centuries of 'mythological baggage' in Peru. Ayahuasca is used for a variety of things by a wide, wide variety of different tribes and people of the amazon, some of them very practical (just ask peter gorman). Reducing it to such simplified terms seems rather ignorant.

"As the history of religion shows, we are easily wooed by romanticized versions of reality — not because they are grounded in evidence, but because they are attractive."

Ayahuasca provides a direct transmission of the mystical directly to the user. The repeated mention of myth and religion in comparison thus seems way, way off. Religion offers a middle man by which to communicate to the divine, it appeals to the exoteric nature of reality, it involves a lot of blind trust and deal making with the divine (i'll trust your clergyman and give you my faith and money if i can reach this place at the end which has all the positives in life). I can't see how this is in any way similar to a psychedelic experience. Not to mention the fact that ayahuasca is also used for physical healing seems to completely elude the writer.



Those were just some of the quick points about the article which really stood out. I'll have to read it later when I have a bit more time to digest it some more.

 
pitubo
#7 Posted : 9/24/2015 3:50:47 PM

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Nathanial.Dread wrote:
Bless this article.

There are some duplicate parts in your quote. Could you fix that please? Blessed be thy edits. Smile
 
pitubo
#8 Posted : 9/24/2015 4:03:06 PM

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I think the article perhaps has some nice intent to point out the prevalence of myths in some parts of the psychedelic "set". But I doubt that it will convince many of the believers it implicitly points to. The article is most credible if you already share the author's premisses and as such the author is preaching to the chorus.

Psychedelic Frontier wrote:
The desire to share is natural and well-meaning — after a profound psychedelic experience, people want to communicate their new “knowledge” to others. Whether the insight concerns aliens and discarnate entities, human history and genetics, half-baked quantum theories, or the imminent apocalypse, the uncritical explorer rushes to share it with anyone who will listen.

A noble goal, to be sure.

Call me cynical, but IMHO it's not particularly "noble", but simply based on a common desire of the social ape in every human to be part of a group consensus. After having one's consensus shaken by an intense psychedelic experience, the urge to restore shelter in a shared consensus can be strong.

Any form of serious personal work and personal development requires the intent to take the fullest responsibility for oneself, in all aspects. This is seriously hard work, because the requirement for self-responsibility is at odds with some of our instincts to belong to a group and surrender our individuality in exchange for protection by the numbers of the herd.

In the psychedelic state the ego defenses are largely dissolved, creating a situation of psychological vulnerability. This feeds the instinctual drive to seek shelter in a group or a group consensus. Then add to this the increase in suggestibility that psychedelic substances also cause and it becomes clear how psychedelics can facilitate uncritical thinking.
 
Nathanial.Dread
#9 Posted : 9/25/2015 12:10:01 AM

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pitubo wrote:
Nathanial.Dread wrote:
Bless this article.

There are some duplicate parts in your quote. Could you fix that please? Blessed be thy edits. Smile

Oops, I must have screwed up my copy/paste job. It should be fixed now, good catch Thumbs up

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
Jakup
#10 Posted : 9/25/2015 12:51:12 AM

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inaniel wrote:
I can't say I was very impressed with the article. Reads as though it were written by an arrogant freshman presenting an argument against... i'm not certain who it is presented against actually. Dogmatic psychedelic users? I don't personally know any such people so I'm not able to identify in that regards.


He seems to take a few truths for granted himself, for instance: Psychedelic realizations being our 'subconscious taking liberties,' Psychedelics and dreaming are similar enough so as to compare a few times. He make an argument against a man, Mckenna, who didn't take himself seriously. Nicely done.


The most offensive part was the reference to 'amazonian animism', and centuries of 'mythological baggage' in Peru. Ayahuasca is used for a variety of things by a wide, wide variety of different tribes and people of the amazon, some of them very practical (just ask peter gorman). Reducing it to such simplified terms seems rather ignorant.

"As the history of religion shows, we are easily wooed by romanticized versions of reality — not because they are grounded in evidence, but because they are attractive."

Ayahuasca provides a direct transmission of the mystical directly to the user. The repeated mention of myth and religion in comparison thus seems way, way off. Religion offers a middle man by which to communicate to the divine, it appeals to the exoteric nature of reality, it involves a lot of blind trust and deal making with the divine (i'll trust your clergyman and give you my faith and money if i can reach this place at the end which has all the positives in life). I can't see how this is in any way similar to a psychedelic experience. Not to mention the fact that ayahuasca is also used for physical healing seems to completely elude the writer.



Those were just some of the quick points about the article which really stood out. I'll have to read it later when I have a bit more time to digest it some more.




I don't think this article argues "against" anyone, it's just promoting skepticism in the psychedelic community. As for ayahuasca, I've never been to the amazon and done a ceremony. But if the shaman has a certain belief system in something like ancestor spirits, that might influence what you take from the trip. So basically don't be quick to believe heavy or supernatural claims just because you had a certain experience with a psychedelic. That's the main point the author is trying to make.

Terence is a good example because he had that crazy experience at La Chorrera and it led him to believe really far fetched things about the nature of reality. His book "True Hallucinations" makes that pretty clear. Say what you want about him not taking himself seriously(he contradicted himself quite a bit), but I've listened to a lot of Terence, and he was BIG into Time Wave Zero and thought he had been let in some hidden secret of the universe. The man was flaky, but I love him, and he set an example of how not to go about things.

He always said direct experience should be trusted over all else, but that's bad advice considering how easily we can be fooled. He always straw-manned science too, calling it ideological and dogmatic. Then he would talk about scientific concepts like he didn't just say that.

Anyways, He didn't make an argument against Terence, he used his ideas as an example to make a point about flaky thinking coming from psychedelic users.
Always
 
pitubo
#11 Posted : 9/25/2015 1:28:17 AM

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inaniel wrote:
He make an argument against a man, Mckenna, who didn't take himself seriously. Nicely done.

Not quite so:
article wrote:
My complaint is not really with McKenna — who promoted questioning, and never claimed to have a monopoly on the truth — but with fans who take his speculations as gospel.

 
RAM
#12 Posted : 9/25/2015 4:03:16 AM

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Awesome article! It is always important to consider all sides of any proposal.

In my personal experience, I have found the very nature of psychedelic drugs to be the nature of skepticism. Whenever presented with an argument or statement or anything, I immediately look for holes and corner cases. I ask, why can't the complete opposite be true? What assumptions am I making? This is one of my favorite things to ponder in life, especially in the context of popular media.

But are psychedelic experiences not themselves almost a form of media? While I don't want to necessarily equate watching a movie with eating a blotter of LSD, but they are similar in that the user makes a choice, "ingests" something external, and then has an experience. Of course the LSD experience will generally be more powerful, but it is an experience motivated by an external source nonetheless. So we then should ask ourselves, what assumptions are we making going into trips? How reliable is the information we are receiving?

I have met many psychedelic users with rather odd and oftentimes questionable beliefs (not that the 'normal' people I meet are any more believable...). While drugs can easily inspire critique of ideology in more aware users, they can also push people more into certain ideologies. A good example is the kind of stuff posted on /r/psychonaut on Reddit; many of the "we are all one" and "we should all just love each other, man" posts were a large part of what inspired me to leave there and come to the Nexus a long time ago.

The trouble is that our ideology comforts us. When someone feels rejected from mainstream culture, it might be easy to fall into using psychedelic drugs and be accepted by a different breed of people, those who care more about your authenticity than aesthetics. While this isn't a "bad" thing, we do have to stay vigilant as to our reasons for doing what we do.

Do we do psychedelics to fit into certain subcultures/ideologies? Do we do them to improve our lives? Or to escape them? Do we do them to have "realizations" that are nothing more than distorted thoughts? What is a distorted thought? How can we tell if we can't trust our own minds?

I'll finish with a quote from Thompson:

Hunter S. Thompson wrote:
All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit... a blind faith in some higher and wiser 'authority.'


As I've always said, psychedelics are not a magic pill. They can act as a catalyst for personal growth if used in the right contexts, but a healthy degree of skepticism is always needed. It's tough when your mind is so vulnerable and suggestible and your sanity is in your own hands, but at least it's never boring.
"Think for yourself and question authority." - Leary

"To step out of ideology - it hurts. It's a painful experience. You must force yourself to do it." - Žižek
 
Legarto Rey
#13 Posted : 9/25/2015 11:57:46 PM
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Super advice regarding unambiguous acceptance of any/all "naked ape" experience as, objective/real/true. Indubitably primary experiencing-consensus or psychedelic-has a greater legitimacy versus referenced accounts of perceived reality.

IMO, the sacred(small letters)gift delivered, reliably via entheogens is the unique dissolution of boundaries, physical, psychologic and egoic. For the average humanoid extant during any era, entheogens(statistically)offer, by FAR, the most practical, ergonomic, effective and accessible means of directly experiencing the archaic, humanly universal and archetypal,MYSTICAL ORGASM.

How this experience is integrated or referenced into "objective" reality is a particularly personal affair. However, in this cosmologic reality frame, there seems to be no doubt that for the standard body/mind Earthling, entheogens deliver the most realistic approach to "sahmadi".

Psychedelics, in a very real way, LIBERATE!!!!!!


Peace
 
DiMoiTou
#14 Posted : 10/1/2015 5:25:04 PM

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Now we need a cautionary tale to illustrate all of this, right? Very happy

I tend to agree with that skeptical point of view, but..
I recently heard about a French man who went to the Amazon without specific biology background and used ayahuasca to draw the insides of the human body, with the accuracy of an MRI scan.
I think it was in one of the MAPS YT videos. Anyone knows about that? I'd like to see the drawings... Smile
 
DeltaSpice
#15 Posted : 10/1/2015 9:41:11 PM

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He sounds a bit ignorant to me.(I'm being polite)

I couldn't get past half way.

In turn that made me skip through most of the replies. This giant can of "Monster" isn't helping Sick

I cant compare spice to dreams. I wish my dreams were like spice.

I also think that people who partake in spice and question it or feel that it is some thing of a bluff hoax , then maybe its not for them because they aren't being allowed access to its fullness .

Good luck Love

 
Jakup
#16 Posted : 10/2/2015 1:18:15 AM

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DeltaSpice wrote:
He sounds a bit ignorant to me.(I'm being polite)

I couldn't get past half way.

In turn that made me skip through most of the replies. This giant can of "Monster" isn't helping Sick

I cant compare spice to dreams. I wish my dreams were like spice.

I also think that people who partake in spice and question it or feel that it is some thing of a bluff hoax , then maybe its not for them because they aren't being allowed access to its fullness .

Good luck Love



What do you mean bluff/hoax ?
I hope you don't mean that if I don't believe that DMT has some supernatural aspect than I can't appreciate it fully.
You probably don't mean that though.
Always
 
DeltaSpice
#17 Posted : 10/2/2015 7:04:14 AM

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Jakup wrote:
DeltaSpice wrote:
He sounds a bit ignorant to me.(I'm being polite)

I couldn't get past half way.

In turn that made me skip through most of the replies. This giant can of "Monster" isn't helping Sick

I cant compare spice to dreams. I wish my dreams were like spice.

I also think that people who partake in spice and question it or feel that it is some thing of a bluff hoax , then maybe its not for them because they aren't being allowed access to its fullness .

Good luck Love



What do you mean bluff/hoax ?
I hope you don't mean that if I don't believe that DMT has some supernatural aspect than I can't appreciate it fully.
You probably don't mean that though.

I am gonna start a war over this lol sorry.

I'm saying that people who have not experienced the Supernatural, (of a manifestation or event attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature)
have not been granted the Supernatural .

I feel this way because pre spice i was not spiritual in way shape or form.

Never believing in spirits or the supernatural.

DMT and Caapi B vine has proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are supernatural powers .

So when people say, its just neurons firing and dreams etc, to me that means they have not experienced what I have or they could never say that.

I know 100% as a fact that it does have supernatural qualities.
Thanks and sorry if what I've said gets your back up, so to speak. I don't mean to offend you.
 
3rdI
#18 Posted : 10/2/2015 8:18:45 AM

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does this 100% proof come when you are sober or does it only occur when heavily effected by drugs?

do you take everything that occurs when your high as fact? if not how do you discern between truth and psychedelic nonsense?

if you wish to tell us about this proof i would be very interested.
INHALE, SURVIVE, ADAPT

it's all in your mind, but what's your mind???

fool of the year

 
tseuq
#19 Posted : 10/2/2015 8:20:38 AM

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According to these paradigms, I really like wilbers idea of a prerational, rational and transrational mind.

tseuq
Everything's sooo peyote-ful..
 
DeltaSpice
#20 Posted : 10/2/2015 8:46:07 AM

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3rdI wrote:
does this 100% proof come when you are sober or does it only occur when heavily effected by drugs?

do you take everything that occurs when your high as fact? if not how do you discern between truth and psychedelic nonsense?

if you wish to tell us about this proof i would be very interested.

Proof occured while under the influence of spice and vine.

Everything that occurs is a fact, because it occurred?

I don't want to tell you about this #proof# because it's private and I get thefeeling that your mind is already made up.

If you have experienced the fullness of spice then you would simply just agree with me.

That's how i see things, sorry if it dosnt sit rite with you.

 
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