DMT spike at birth would substantiate connection to spirit world on dmt. how would one test dmt spike kinda like the spike on death, if such a spike does exist it would help the connection to spirit world argument. Seems like something that should be checked, Or has it been checked already?

Got a citation for this mythical DMT spike at birth? How about one for the 'death spike?'

Blessings
~ND

Thought the death spike was a well known thing (rick stassmen dmt spirt molecule)? I am proposing some research if none has been done on a possible birth spike.

The DMT spike at death is far from confirmed. Strassman was only speculating, and he even admitted that his experiments suggested against DMT being the primary cause of the near death experience.

Joe Rogan has a lot to answer for.

The long story is that Rick Strassman, in his book The Spirit Molecule speculated that DMT *might* be created in the event of severe bodily trauma for...some reason, although he took pains to point out that this was just speculation. To this day, there has really been no evidence that such a thing occurs, the role of endogenous DMT remains as mysterious as ever.

Unfortunately, New Age hippy types somehow got it into their heads that Strassman's speculation was confirmed, scientific fact, and basically had a field day with this idea of the 'Spirit Molecule.' Somewhere in there, someone cooked up the idea that DMT was also released at birth (I have no earthly idea where this thought came from). Rogan popularized these ideas in his talks on DMT and the whole thing has snowballed from there.

Here's where we stand on endogenous DMT:

1) We don't know what it's doing in the body, if it's doing anything at all.
2) There is no evidence that DMT is made in mass quantities upon death.
3) There is no evidence that DMT is made in mass quantities upon birth.
4) There is very little evidence that DMT is created in the pineal gland, or involved with this organ in any way.
5) Even if there is a role for endogenous DMT, there is no reason to believe that it's psychoactive effects are at all relevant to that role: it may regulate toenail growth or something and just happens to be a powerful psychedelic because biology is funny like that.

Blessings
~ND

I thought my toe nails seemed unusually long and healthy looking when I got back from hyperspace!

In all seriousness, though, are you aware of any consensus on what endogenous DMT is doing for the plants that produce it? I ask because you seem to have a handle on sorting out most of the speculation turned tautological truth that Google (or rather, Disconnect.me) turn up when I've looked for answers on this topic. I figure the plants metabolic pathways are simpler and studying them in detail should be more straightforward.

The role of tryptamines in plants is probably largely that of deterring predators. While tryptamines are relatively safe, imagine an herbivore getting the bad trip of its life: it's probably not going to eat that plant again! Plus, a dead predator can't tell other predators to avoid that plant, which is an added bonus. Anyhow, this is all speculation, since nothing concrete has really been discovered as far as potential functions of endogenous tryptamines in plants.

That being said, I tend to think that tryptamines don't serve a metabolic purpose in the plants that produce them. They're so different in structure to plant hormones I just can't see where they'd functionally fit in to that paradigm. Plus, they're neurotransmitters and plants operate seemingly exclusively via hormonal signaling (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Proposing research in this area is like proposing research to locate actual smurfs... We really just need more research on the 5-HTP receptors and the effects of DMT on controlled subjects (at least short term, rather than acute).

I'm a little surprised no one has asked this question: regardless of whether the DMT spike would be present at birth, I'm not clear on how the spike would substantiate a connection to the spirit world on DMT. I seem to be missing a step in the logic here.

I've had a number of experiences on DMT that have included infantile feelings (feeling like a newborn), lullabies, soft pastel colors, etc...If there were a spike at birth, then this phenomenon could start taking on a plethora of new and valid meaning, but even at that I still would be at a loss for substantiating a connection to the spirit world.

"The role of tryptamines in plants is probably largely that of deterring predators."

There is not much evidence to support that idea though. Bufotenine present in citrus trees for instance plays a role in modulating the mating behavior of butterflies. The idea of these things as deterrents seems to have less and less followers.

This one also traces back to Strassman in TSM afaik. He suggests there is a primordial release of DMT at 49 days from conception when the pineal and sexual organs begin to form in the fetus which aligns with the buddhist model of reincartion (pg. 81-82). He also suggests DMT is released again at time of birth due to surges of stress hormones that take place during that experience (pg. 68-69, 75-76).

Has anyone actually said that? I thought the story went that the pineal gland was formed at 49 days in the womb. The connection was then made that this corresponded to the Tibetan Book of the Dead's assertion that the soul entered into the embryo at 49 days [no comment]. The next entirely unsubstantiated bit of information that has been circulated is that this formation of the pineal gland caused the production of dmt corresponding to the arrival of the soul [comment: way beyond speculation and into the realm of pure fantasy]

Is it really hard to test dmt levels via normal blood tests? I ask because it has been years and there still seems to be no actual scientific tests at least proving/disproving the spikes in dmt...must be much harder than a blood centrifuge/marquis reagent orange indicator kinda test otherwise I am sure someone would have done proper study by now.

As for the other conversation about what the spikes would mean. I think that would be a personal choice, as science has yet to prove/understand some of basics regarding consciousness/existence. Mainstream science I believe still regards brain as complex machine but far from understanding how consciousness comes out of that. I choose to believe I am the thing that see's, hear's, feel's, and observes my inside voice (I do not think true consciousness is having a inside voice but to observe it like all other sensory inputs). So in other words my view (and think everyone needs their own personal view here) is that I am the "person" sitting at the complex computer (brain) not the complex computer.

Consider this issue. DMT is metabolized extremely rapidly. When one smokes DMT, it may be difficult to feel any sort of solid effect if many variables are not taken into account (i.e. holding it in, not burning it, etc...) along with unknown/unknowable variables (if the position of the stars affected the experience, we would have no way of knowing). So then even when the DMT is administered properly such that it takes profound effect, it's perceptible presence is dissolved within 10 minutes because the body is so incredibly efficient at metabolizing DMT. Now, you want to take blood tests at strategically difficult time periods to predict such as birth from the womb or the moment of death, taking into consideration that the DMT will have vanished within minutes, while also considering that it likely won't be released in as heavy a concentration as a single lungful of 30mg of DMT. It should seem that death doesn't stop the rapid metabolization of DMT, as in Ralph Metzner's book "The Toad and the Jaguar," Metzner relates a story of a companion of his who died on 5-MeO DMT in a pool. The authorities found no trace of anything in her blood, as it had been thoroughly metabolized, keeping in mind that 5-MeO DMT would be in a person's system for even longer than DMT anyway.

kgp4death, endogenous DMT doesn't circulate in the blood much, if at all. You can measure DMT levels (briefly) in the blood stream when it is acquired from external sources (IV, insufflation, oral, inhaling FB vapor, etc). Instead, endogenous DMT is found in the cerebrospinal fluid and in the brain itself with incidental traces being picked up in organs like the lungs and kidneys in some samples, but not consistently or in anywhere near the concentration as CSF samples.

Taking a CSF sample is hard to do and extremely invasive for a full grown adult. Lumbar punctures can have lifelong effects including migraine headaches for reasons that aren't fully understood last I checked. Performing an LP in utero on a fetus that's only 49 days old is completely unthinkable.

On the theoretical spiritual side, I believe DMT in all likelihood has a significant connection to what grounds our consciousness to our brains and in turn our bodies. My own beliefs on this are still forming, I tend to meditate on the problem several times a week, sometimes intentionally, sometimes when insomnia dictates that I shall.

The way I view it, our consciousness in its simplest state is a vibrational pattern that is self referential (i.e. self aware), which is only possible in an infinite field of vibration. Recursion in any form hinges on the concept of infinity existing and our consciousness if definitively recursive in nature. This fits with my overall understanding of the shape of the universe, but that's still taking shape and I don't want to ramble on here for 10,000 words on that topic just yet.

At any rate, what grounds our consciousness in this reality is the possibility for it to exist in the first place. They resonate, so they interact. This hinges on our reality also being one of infinite possibility rather than entirely deterministic. This relies on the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics to be more or less true as we understand it today.

So then, the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics hinges on the universe splitting at a quantum level any time an outcome is uncertain. Like the two-slit experiment with individual photons we have proven that certain physical phenomenon are quantum in nature and are uncertain until they are observed.

As I understand it, consciousness requires that biological phenomenon are also uncertain in nature. I personally believe that DMT helps deregulate our otherwise deterministic neurotransmitter/hormonal/electrical impulses to be quantum in nature and thus uncertain.

Imagine two competing thoughts/impulses where a quick, near baseless decision is required such as "Do I pull lever A or B?" in a crisis.

If you were able to observe the inner workings of your brain on a mechanical/biological level from the connectome all the way down to every individual neuron firing it should theoretically be possible to observe competing impulses to pull one vs the other.

With infinite capacity to measure and map these impulses it should be possible to map these down to bias rooted in experience (the letter A vs the letter B, left vs right, the color of one vs the color of another, etc, all of these factors resonating with past memories/experiences/epigenetic influence) until it's truly down to these impulses competing at a single neuronal interface where one will "win out" over the other.

In a world with no room for infinity or spiritual notions this outcome should be deterministic. I believe DMT is what allows both possibilities to win out on a quantum scale thus splitting the universe continuously with every thought and decision each one of us has.

The fact, then, that our brains have the capacity to play host to non-deterministic processes at a suitable scale is the reason our consciousness resonates with and inhabits them.

Our decisions then have less to do with shaping outcomes so much as picking a path from a continually branching trail, with almost every decision being made blindly, or near enough as to make no matter.

It's like the Robert Frost poem if you understand the poem's true meaning. You have the traveller raving on and on about how taking a particular path has made all the difference (in his case, priding himself on taking the road less travelled) but the entire poem sets up with an explanation that at the branch the two were indistinguishable. The choice was made blindly.

Instead, the traveller rationalizes and romanticizes the power of his choice, telling himself a story that he made a decision and it mattered. On the contray, every time you reach a point where two roads diverge in a yellow wood (or a yellow-orange crystal derived from a woody source) both paths are equally valid, both realities exist, and you are merely choosing which one you explore and experience.

The universe exists in all its forms. We are the story we tell ourselves to make sense of it. The self referential pattern that finds edges and creates meaning out of the void.

This is all fiction based on crazy notions that I've had, but perhaps there's some truth hidden in there as well.

Thanks, dreamer. That's news to me. I'm somehow even less impressed with Dr. Strassman than I already was...

Maybe I should finally get around to actually reading TSM. I'd read his published papers, and thought I'd gotten the gist of it, but it seems like there's more speculation going on in his book.

Also, as a general note: it's very hard to get a high resolution picture of any kind of neurotransmitter release in the brain. Synapses are simply too small, and metabolism happens too fast. Most studies look at metabolites as they are excreted or pass into the bloodstream. In general, it pays to be a little skeptical when anyone says "xyz is associated with the release of abc in the brain," unless they've got good data backing them up.

Blessings
~ND

Ah, yes the wave-particle duality. It is almost amusing to me that science accepts this and has proven this. So science seems to say consciousness is NECESSARY to collapse infinite possibility into a concrete outcome. They (and I am also very much as a scientist by heart) get away with it by saying this is at an atomic level, but then go on to say all light is effected because it is photons and all matter is atoms so all matter is effected too. Based on Newtonian physics/universe of cause-and-effect the universe it's self is in a very much quantum state until a consciousness observes it. Anyone else find that funny, because I find it hilarious, unless I completely missed the ball.

I need to meditate on particle wave duality specifically. But yes, if conscious experience is necessary to collapse a probability wave down to a discrete reality it underlines the foundational nature of consciousness to this reality. More to the point, that line of thinking is laughably blind in placing special significance on the slice of the probability wave that it ends up experiencing, pretending it's the only one.

My theory on why we tend to do this stems from Alan Watts' line of thinking, that all of this is a game we choose to play. Games are more fun when you play them naturally without fixating on the rules, and are the most fun in those brief instants when you can forget that it's a game in the first place. By this rationale anyone who can turn a blind eye to the fundamental nature of our reality is, in a sense, winning.

With that in mind, any realizations I may have on the nature of the universe, well, I'm not losing, per say, but if I'm winning it is not at the same game as most everyone else.

At any rate, it's a mistake to think that the probability wave collapses in the first place. The photon does, in fact, go through both slits. We only get to experience one, but another us experiences the other just the same.

Slit 1 or slit 2 is arbitrary, and both are equally valid and equally real, they merely serve as sign posts letting us know we've taken another turn at yet another fork. That much is essentially scientific fact. The extrapolations that I make from it are speculative fiction, but I feel there's truth in there just the same.

Getting back to the subject at hand, that's where I believe DMT comes in. I think there's something special about the shape of the molecule that pushes other neurotransmitter behavior away from deterministic behavior into the realm of quantum mechanics. It is thus our actual observation of the slit experiment (our brain attempting to process the reality it is emersed in) that makes the probability wave seem to collapse. Something has to be "breaking" critical deterministic physical/chemical/biological processes that happen within our minds and from what I've experienced, DMT is the most likely culprit.

Seems like we picked the same rules for ourselves to play our game against. I am happy to have found dmt, sensory deprivation and a place for like minded people to talk.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not upset or bitter about the path that I'm on. Quite the opposite. I just think it's useful to attempt to maintain some perspective.

I've heard talk of people who want to "wake up the planet" which in my mind would be a lot like running through a chess tournament flipping boards left and right as you ran between the tables. Total dick move. The game is important, the game is fun, and it is, in the end, why we're all here.

And yet here I am, aware that it's a game, aware of myself, and exploring beyond it to try to find meaning both outwards and within. It's dizzying and wonderful and terrifying and full of whatever meaning we can cobble together through our experiences.

It's fun, it's challenging, and I'm a lot happier than I was even a year ago when I was wrestling with existential questions with no hint of an answer. So please forgive me if I'm occasionally a little detached and don't let my stoic nature fool you. I love whatever this is, and now that I'm on this path I intend to follow it to whatever end I may find.