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@ Two Kinds of Ego Death Options
 
tseuq
#1 Posted : 7/19/2015 11:36:03 AM

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Chronic wrote:
On light to moderate doses i've found ego-loss to be quite subtle, killing me softly if you will... i find that to elicit release at these doses usually involves a practice that sensitizes one to the substance like meditation/contemplation, laying down with eyes closed, listening to music can help and even dancing, on even really low doses it's possible to come to the point where one is in a deep state of surrender/openess yet there is still consciousness, a body, and some semblence of identity.
On higher doses i find it's much the same just much more forceful, so whether i consciously meditate or not it's usually going to happen, if i don't distract myself and meditate then it can come to the point where i lose all physical reference of self and even lose consciousness itself... i do feel that it's possible to go just as deep with much lower doses it just takes more sensitization/deeper meditation


I am totally with you, it is all about my own openness/sensitivity for the "..." in between. The substances I experience work as a supporter to enhance this process, ultimately I need no substance at all to experience ego death, I am, now.

Love tseuq
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Naut
#2 Posted : 8/5/2015 12:26:55 AM

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I've found with my high dose mushroom experience it was very much more forced upon me until I was just awareness in a body. Compared to a lower dose experience where I was stuck in between frantically attempting to grasp baseline...
my loopy guess is that t. mckenna is off hopping about hyperspace wielding a butterfly net analog, all the while collecting the most peculiar.
 
null24
#3 Posted : 8/5/2015 1:37:28 AM

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I'm so confused over this terminology. My limited understanding of the term derives from Buddhist meditation techniques, and it only occurs in a true unitive experience, when the 'I' completely dissolves into the absolute, and in these states one often feels as if they are or have died, and awareness of self and surroundings disappears.

In my internal dictionary, this state is also the definition of entheogenic. Anything else is psychedelic.

I think a lot of people call the state where one feels that everything in the environment is novel, and experiences reality as if for the first time ego death. And i suppose it is in that the ego is not controlling the show with all it's preconceptions, ideals, and tapes it plays out.

IDK I'd like to see some clarification of these terms in relation to psychedelics. We are dealing with new territory really, we can develop language to communicate it.
Sine experientia nihil sufficienter sciri potest -Roger Bacon
*γνῶθι σεαυτόν*
 
#4 Posted : 8/5/2015 2:45:46 AM
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Once full boundary dissolution takes effect for me, the subject-object, inside-outside, perceiver-perceived, me-outside world drops itself into one endless moment of ineffability, no words, no jostling for dualistic descriptors of any sort; strictly and fully ONE; and in this moment the 'Me', the "I" is fully dissolute and any potential thoughts that I might typically have are instantaneously and effortlessly absorbed ad infinitum. Consensus reality is effortlessly replaced by 'That", me included. No more experiencer, ..just the experience. The experience that is experiencing itself.

Ime, through full boundary dissolution , full bore ego-death occurs; nothing left in tact aside from The Mystery itself.

 
No Knowing
#5 Posted : 8/5/2015 4:11:53 AM

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Tattvamasi wrote:
Once full boundary dissolution takes effect for me, the subject-object, inside-outside, perceiver-perceived, me-outside world drops itself into one endless moment of ineffability, no words, no jostling for dualistic descriptors of any sort; strictly and fully ONE; and in this moment the 'Me', the "I" is fully dissolute and any potential thoughts that I might typically have are instantaneously and effortlessly absorbed ad infinitum. Consensus reality is effortlessly replaced by 'That", me included. No more experiencer, ..just the experience. The experience that is experiencing itself.

Ime, through full boundary dissolution , full bore ego-death occurs; nothing left in tact aside from The Mystery itself.



I've noticed two kinds, the one my light-filled brother, Tattvamasi speaks of above. This is when there is no point of reference, anything to hold onto, perceptions spreads waaay out and time breaks. THAT THAT THAT AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH@#%#$^#$

The other kind IME, which is more common, is when I am still a single point of perception but I have no self-referential or egoic thoughts. I'm not a human anymore but still am a single energetic point or soul. This would be like on a medium DMT breakthrough where stuff is still happening to a self, but I have no thought of, "O I'm just this human guy on DMT." There is just the experience happening to a self. With a feeling of oneness between the self and the experience. But still some duality. [think archetype of Hanuman]

The first more cosmic and dissolving kind is hard to desribe and is best reserved for art and poetry. Smile
In the province of the mind what one believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits. These limits are to be found experimentally and experientially. When so found these limits turn out to be further beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind there are no limits. However, in the province of the body there are definite limits not to be transcended.-J.C. Lilly
The Spice must flow
Zat was Zen and dis is Dao.
 
Nathanial.Dread
#6 Posted : 8/5/2015 4:33:34 AM

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When I first proposed the idea of two kinds of ego death, here's what I wrote down (this is in the Hyperspace Lexicon, thanks to AstraLex):

Nathanial.Dread wrote:
"Soft" Ego Death seems to happen more frequently at lower doses, and it's a sense that, while the experiencer is still having a 1st hand experience of existing, all the mental associations they have about themselves (their name, history, self-concept, etc), have been shed, leaving some kind of pure 'self.' That self, however, is still self-aware, and still understands itself as something different from the outside world (i.e. it can draw the distinction between that which is it, and that which is not it).

"Hard" Ego Death is something that I've only seen described at high doses [think LSD thumbprints], and that gets described as a total breakdown of the boundaries between the 'self' and the 'the universe.' It becomes impossible to distinguish where one ends and the universe begins. The internal monologue and subjective experience of being 'I' ends. This seems closer to the transcendental states described by early mystics in their writings on religious experience, while "Soft" Ego Death is more psychoanalytical or cognitive. "Soft" Ego death occurs in all cases of "Hard" ego death, but not vise versa. "Hard" ego death is almost like loosing consciousness, and more prone to descriptions such as "union," "becoming one with," or "God."


You can think of soft ego death as being Freudian, while hard ego death being more akin to annihilation or non-being. This sort of gets at the fact that we have really two definitions of the ego in our culture: one being the mental and social constructs surrounding the sense of self (name, personal history, memories, etc), and the other being a more nebulous sense, what Douglas Hofstadter calls 'I-ness' that you exist in some way that is separate from the rest of the universe: the difference between the self and the notself. You might also call this 'consciousness,' although that gets into thorny territory so I try and avoid using that term.

Alternate terms that we discussed were 'weak' and 'strong' ego death, which I also liked.

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
tseuq
#7 Posted : 8/5/2015 10:09:57 AM

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To me, there is nothing to do, nothing to think of, nothing to talk about, nothing to whatever, I am. I am one in the infinite now, unquestionable, indescribable, inseperable, unthinkable, even if I am not aware of. Ego death is an illusion because there has never been an ego at all.

The illsuion of the experiencer is my human experience itself, my dream in which I choose to forget about I to experience seperation. Life experiences itself as I experience I.

Being pure self arises only in the now, as a layer out of infinite onto I.

tseuq
Everything's sooo peyote-ful..
 
 
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