It seems that lately there is an increased interest in 5-MeO-DMT. Having never tried it, I too am intrigued, but also somewhat concerned.

5-MeO-DMT is significantly more potent than N,N-DMT. A strong vaporized dose can be as small as 5 mg or less, whereas a similar DMT experience would require 30+ mg, suggesting that 5-MeO is 4-5X as potent as N,N. This leads some to conclude, after taking 10, 15 or 20 mg of 5-MeO that the experience is “deeper” or takes one “further” than N,N. This may be the case, but I’m guessing that an efficiently vaporized dose of 80 – 100 mg of N,N would take one far to say the least!

I have concerns about the safety of 5-MeO. Years ago I read the TIHKAL entry, and there is an account of someone vaporizing 30 mg and experiencing respiratory arrest and serious medical after-effects. More recently I read an account of someone using 5-MeO in a supervised setting and also experiencing respiratory arrest. I have never read similar accounts involving N,N.

To those thinking about using 5-MeO-DMT, please be responsible about dosing, set, and setting, and make sure you have a sitter who can help in the event of a medical emergency.

Good idea, i've heard there are potential issues with oral administration of 5-MeO-DMT as well, particularly in combination with MAOIs.

I'm in the same position as you, interested but concerned, i think you're right that a sitter is a must have for this one.

I think that respiratory arrest is a concern with extremely high doses of most entheogens, i believe that the cause of death in most of the LD50 studies is due to respiratory arrest. When you're talking about a few milligrams being an extremely high dose that's definitely a concern.

... and that any mishap on 5meo that comes to external attention, will have repercussions on the N,N scene as well.

I echo your concerns, gibran2. There is interest in transformative experience growing in the west, and in my humble opinion, 5 meo DMT carries the ability to deliver such a thing much more reliably than n,n DMT.

I've looked all over for information on the lethality of 5 meo DMT with varying success, and not enough to repost anything here on there subject. This is spurred by my experience with it, when i injected IV what i thought was b/n 30~50mg of n,n DMT fumarate, but was the former.

I was alone and ignorant to the point of egregious stupidity for being so careless. To this day, i don't know if the sensation was real or hallucinated of feeling my heart stop, after collapsing face down, and the last breath leave my body from which it flowed like so much water leaving a spilt vessel. The experience, which went on to mimic a traditional NDE, and during which i entered into Samadhe, the void, Eloah VeDaath, the mind of God, left me transformed.

The single most powerful experience of my long painful life, it moved my life into a different place, one of movement and struggle, and fulfillment.

I fully support the use of this molecule in one's quest for personal, spiritual, and physical betterment, but with ultimate caution. The experience shattered my life, being so incredibly powerful I was prevented from being able to return to the destructive duplicitous ways is been party of for so long. Without a plan for an alternative, i ended up homeless which became a several year long struggle

So, not only with physical precaution in mind experiment with this molecule but with a spiritual preparedness as well.

I have used it sublingual, insufflated and vaporized and so far not had any negative physical response to it. I have had much worse responses to ayahuasca a couple times, and def experienced respiratory issues with bufotenine. Bufotenine is IMO far more taxing physically than 5-MeO-DMT is. I have not experienced any issues with 5-MeO-DMT that I have not also had with DMT. 5-MeO-DMT is extremely tactile(it is more physical and empathic for me compared to DMT) so I can imagine for many the physical effects might seem amplified even if they are perfectly okay.

I also used it once(vaporized) with a small dose of harmalas and was totally okay.

Still, I would caution people. The potency of this stuff is not to be dismissed.

Overall, I find it so far to be somewhat more warm and inviting(something it shares with psilocybin for myself) compared to DMT, which in contrast can be somewhat sharp and impersonal. I find the phsyical and psychological effects of 5-MeO-DMT to share more in common with psilocybin mushrooms than with DMT actually. Psilocybin is often described as being pushy and having heavy mind warp/ego dissolution...instantly I could identify similar character in 5-MeO-DMT the first time I smoked it. This can really push people into some frightening and chaotic spaces at doses just under the full dissolution level. With DMT, it seems like more of the self is always intact...and while you can get to these spaces with DMT as well, it is not as common IME.

It is probly clear by now that I seem to favor 5-MeO-DMT and psilocybin over DMT. That is partly true I guess. I don't think one is better than the other 2(I think all 3 are the best tryptamines I have encountered and are equals) and I really love DMT, but atm I am really facinated with both psilocybin and meo due to the depth of psychological effects they have on myself.

^..seems to be very resonant with you jamie..

gibran2..i think your concerns are valid..

5meo-DMT is another entity all together..

it is of particular concern in conjunction with MAOIs...
there have been reports of 1-2 week long 'freak-outs' with this oral combination, as well as cardiac issues..
concerns have also been raised about smoked 5meo in conjunction with MAOIs (such as by the late D.M.Turner, who noted an increasing reverse tolerance that began to disturb even him, as well as dietary issues)

not as much is known about the parameters of 5meo, compared with DMT, and i would urge extra caution with it..
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One of the things not spoken to too often with 5meo DMT is the tendency for the experience to re surface, especially during the 2-3 week period after dosing. According to some members of a group in the bay area who are working with it that I've spoken with, as well as in my own experience with it, that's probably the freak out you're talking about.

IMHO, 5 is something that doesn't need repeated applications. A good solid dose of it opens doors that just are not going to be shut again, for better or worse. Preparation for something one could never prepare for is advised with this one...

I'm with Jamie as far as 5meo DMT being somewhat superior as an entheogen than n,n DMT.I don't know, I've never had full dissolution on n,n DMT. Even at high doses, with utter and complete annihilation, 'I' was still there, admonishing my fate. In some sense, with it, I'm always somehow present in hyperspace, like an observer and the observed effect. Ugh, IDK.

It does open up some sort of door in my experience with the stuff, which is rather limited. I have only used 5-MeO-DMT(synthetic) maybe 6-7 times, and only did I go for the full on light out level once. I have not had the courage or really desire to use it since that experience a few months back.

Right around the same time I began experimenting with 5-MeO-DMT however, my tribe of ravers re-introduced MDMA into my life. I had only used MDMA about 4 times in the past, and that was 7-8 years ago now. I always took half doses of the stuff and sure had some euphoria but it was def def not the full experience.

So...this beautiful angel doses me with a full dose of pure MDMA crystal on the side of the dance floor...I wont go into much detail here but as it really came on I hit a sort of emotional crisis and a LOT of old trauma came up. I was able to process that and let go of that pretty quick(thank god for friends!) and then opened up like I never imagined possible. It was pure heart consciousness. Entheogenic bliss..and it was DEEP..one of the most magical nights of my life.

Fast forward a few days, and I have my 5-MeO-DMT light out experience. I was god. There is a presence in the white light..this numinosity..it's not a being, it just is..there is no you or it..there is only is. There really is no way to describe it without doing it a great injustice.

So comming back from this peak, once I figured out who and what I was, there was this same deep and extremely profound entactogenic bliss that the MDMA had activated within myself. The 5-MeO-DMT was doing the MDMA thing!

So..fast forward to 3 weeks ago...I am at bass coast festival, which is like a fusion of shambhala and burning man. I decide to experiment with MDMA again with my rave tribe..so I eat this precious crystaline medicine and it comes on fast..this time no existential crisis to deal with..just pure, ecstatic, light filled bliss..and I begin going into the 5-MeO-DMT white light..in and out as I am dancing in spirals under the moon for hours until the sun again rises..I sit down in the trees next to a rotating tetra-hedron(a real art installation not a hallucination) and close my eyes and I am in it..that god space..bass music saturating my pours with the milky semen of the numinous..

The next night is psilocybin..and rays of light are filling my soul as I spin in circles laughing..running through the festival bare foot, through the trees..swimming through the stars..I put on part of an octopus costume and I can feel that thing, that presence in the light quaintly smiling back through me as if amused at this creative dance of self discovery..I sit down, close my eyes and am gone..there is nothing but this light, always..forever..I spend the wee hours of the morning wandering the myriad of art installations glowing in the forest like beacons of light beckoning my soul back home, walking slowly with my hands over my heart as the temporary carrier of this divine light endlessly incarnating through the eyes of the world..

The next night I take more MDMA..and again Im back with this energy filling me up..energy coursing through my veins..I have no much energy..I am running through the woods now laughing and jumping, dancing..hopping from stage to stage to stage in utter ecstacy. I have never felt so much alive in my entire life..I dance for hours smoking ganja like a rock star..and then it really hits me. I stop suddenly at a large luminscent wood geodesic dome in the center of the festival, and it dawns on me - I have no idea where I am! it was quite like the no self state of the meo peak, except I had some sense of there being an I, and I knew that I was okay..but I had no idea where that I was, where that I was trying to go, or why it even mattered necessarily. I remember bliss so strong it trumped any sense of urgency or fear..I felt like god. Down the trail there was a down tempo bass set playing and it became like waves in an endless ocean and so my body followed it..followed it until I found myself fully aware of my surroundings etc again dancing in a crowd of freaks, beautifully glowing all the colors of the rainbow..the moon was large in the sky and I felt the genuine spirit of humanity that night as a singlar tribal plight through time to get to where we are now, guided ever foreward by this presence..this numinous light in an otherwise dark existence. I ended up right where I wanted to be but had totally forgot(just in time for long walk short docks set) and danced and danced and thought "this is what comes out of the 5-MeO light, this endless dance of creative expression.

I feel like 5-MeO-DMT has opened some kind of door for me, and other entheogens begin to now touch down on that space more and more.

Concerning the respiratory effects of 5-meo-dmt, when smoked for me it produces the effect of stopping the automatic breathing response. I am not unable to breathe, but it takes a conscious decision and effort to breathe which I think could cause a panic attack in unprepared individuals and could worsen the condition in a psychosomatic spiral of fear, potentially causing respiratory arrest.

One thing I noticed while looking at the 5-meo-dmt binding affinities in contrast to n,n-dmt is that the former hits 5-ht1a/5-ht1b/d3/d4/d2 and the norepinephrine transporter while the latter does not according the the Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome study. I think the norepinephrine activation is connected to this effect and can cause panic attacks. The loss of automatic breathing I have not been able to pin down.

This paper (Modulation of respiratory rhythm by alpha 2-adrenoceptors in awake and anesthetized goats by M. S. Hedrick, M. L. Ryan, J. Pizarro, G. E. Bisgard) states "[...] alpha 2-adrenoceptors may play an important role in the control of central respiratory rhythm." but N,N-DMT hits the alpha 2 adrenoceptor subtypes more strongly and does not have this effect in me.

I think these incidents had a psychosomatic basis, N,N-DMT hits the adrenoceptors more and if there were a cardiac concern it would lie there, which no one is worried about. 5-meo-dmt is safer on 5-ht2b agonism as well, binding at 1/5th the strength of N,N according to the Receptorome study. The MAO inhibition effect is the greatest danger of 5-meo-dmt and standard ayahuasca rules should be applied when using it (especially with combinations). That it releases norepinephrine and also blocks it reuptake via MAOI is concerning, but 5-meo-tmt has twice the affinity for norepinephrine, has 5-meo maoi inhibition, and doesn't cause cardiac concerns or even anxiety according to TIKHAL and the Bluelight thread. Probably 5-meo-dmt's dopamine (d2/d3/d4) agonism (which 5-meo-tmt lacks) accounts for the panic attack propensity for this compound, which I have experienced myself when dealing with the breathing issue. That effect and the ramped up intensity of being it produces is why I use it rarely, and the MAOI issue with tyramine and stimulants. It is also not as information rich as N,N-DMT, but it is a far better ego dissolver due to its potent 5ht1a agonism. It is the fastest route to a whiteout of any substance, a bullet to the Source.

..first, to be sure 5meo is a powerful entheogen..it's just that it can be very varied in how it affects people..



..no, there are 2 incidents i'm aware of from the highly experimental '90s...
one, which i will try to find the original reference, was when 5meo was administered orally with MAOIs, ayahuasca analogue style, leading to near cardiac arrest, and a 2 week psychotic breakdown in a subject..

the other is:


..i've never heard of similarly severe or prolonged DMT reaction..

re possible cardiac effects, i don't think we have enough data on 5meo-DMT:
"The death of a 25-year-old male caused by amine intoxication involved 5-MeO-DMT in addition to DMT and b-carboline. No laboratory animal studies were located during the present review that compared the toxicity of orally active 5-MeO-DMT with orally active DMT...Experienced researchers have cautioned that these substances should not be casually interchanged in ayahuasca-like preparations. The male decedent ingested an unknown quantity of ‘herbal tonics’ that presumably contained MAOIs in addition to the DMT and 5MeO-DMT because he was found to have a blood concentration of tetrahydroharmine three times higher than that found among 14 volunteers in a UDV hoasca study. The autopsy was performed the day after the body was discovered, so post-mortem drug redistribution makes it difficult to determine what the peak cardiac or peripheral blood concentration of tetrahydroharmine or 5-MeO-DMT might have actually been."
(from Risk assessment of ritual use of oral dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and harmala alkaloids; Robert S. Gable )

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..on a final note, one of the things Terence McKenna thought was remarkable about DMT was that , at high dose, it left enough of the the observer present to be able to 'record' what was taking place..one of the strongest points of it for him..above 100mg, effectively vapourised, though, there isn't the human, let alone time/space reference, who vapourised to begin with..
..i don't really think the concept 'superior' can be used with regards to contrasting powerful entheogens..each has their keys, and work differently for different people..

i think the E.R. commentary on the above report sums it up well, re this topic..
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Wow, nen, thank you for those references.

It sounds like the MAOI/5meo DMT is the culprit for these bad reactions for the most part. Hopefully the research can be done to empiricize the health data more fully with it, until then , this molecule needs to handled with great care and utmost respect.

(EDIT- just read your post, Pharmacognosis, and it contained great empirical health info )

I apologize for the inefficiency of words, in that using one like superior isn't really correct.

I'm not sure i understand the statement on Terrance's statement. Above 100mg vaped would more than likely just cause a black out for me. I have a theory about McKenna and his heroic doses. The man was not very sensitive to their effects by weight. Or I'm super sensitive, one. I doubt I'd ever purposefully vape 100.

^..no worries null24..yeah 5meo (being itself an MAOI) seems to have longer acting effects in some than the 'peak' effects suggest..
the terence bit was about the observer still being present a high dose with DMT..i don't think he ever went as high as 100mg..that's me (actually it was 90mg), in my boundary and self-guineapigging youth..all i can say is - it was All going on!

white out vs black out...is there a difference? ...void vs totality

but i kind of feel with DMT there's more recall, in a very abstract and hard to define way...
anyway..different metabolisms, different launch platforms..

i think all paths lead to the same thing eventually..
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I think Mckenna just said a lot of stuff. Don't get me wrong I love the guy but he was def a talker...and he admitted to being a hard head. His mushroom doses for instance seem higher than many people need to achieve that level of effects, so unless he was growing weak shrooms(which is a possibility)...he also said his breakthrough level dose of DMT was 75mg..which is about 3x what most people here need with proper tek.

Many people were using 5-MeO-DMT with harmalas for oral experiences in the 90's..Jonothan Ott was even selling pharmahuasca pills with harmine and 5-MeO-DMT(as separate pills)..and people were experimenting with phalaris and rue...I think that the negative responses are just a few cases, but still worth noting and people should be careful.

I have achieved nice effects with just 5mg insufflated, without any beta carbolines present. There really is no need for oral use with harmine just to have a longer experience...and I cant imagine vaping 20mg. That is just way too much(for my nervous system). I have no desire to go over 6mg.

It does not help that people still say that virolas are added to ayahuasca and that chaliponga contains 5-MeO-DMT..nor does all this confusion about 5-MeO-DMT equaling bufotenine and vice versa that is going around lately. I have seen a number of people now claim that yopo and vilca either is a 5-MeO-DMT experience, or that bufotenine combusts and converts to 5-MeO-DMT..aside from the fact that this is not true, it causes more confusion as bufotenine is traditionally used with caapi...and 5-MeO-DMT is afaik not used with vine anywhere.

..hi jamie..yeah i agree there's a lot of 5meo mis-info nonsense going about..and your doage range sounds sensible..

re Terence (long may he live in hyperspace) remember he used a glass pipe which was more like a sophisticated version of a base pipe (with a larger bowl and a longer narrower neck) ..so 75mg in that context is not as efficient still as today's vaporizers..

re Ott ..i remember people at the time thinking it was extremely dubious for him to be dishing out those harmala/5meo pills..and there was criticism of safety..he withdrew them after some complaints and reactions..also..he can be a bit of a tryptamine hardhead himself! lol

..i thank gibran2 for raising this topic..the safety of Nexians is of key importance, as is the accumulation of information and research in order to allow informed decisions to be made..

a key question emerges, for me, with regards to all these issues of what entheogen, 5meo-dmt vs dmt, what dosage etc
..the most important question, i believe, if one is to take either of these, or not..

and that is:

'What are you looking for?'
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namaste all,
om shanti..
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i'm curious, nen, have you experienced 5-meo-dmt? this entheogen has peaked my interest lately, i'd love to hear what your experiences may have been like.

Wow is all I can say.

I fully understand, this is powerful. Reading this conjured about strong emotions in me. I had to comment.






Completely agree with these. My experience has been the same. I feel like psychoactives "hit me" harder now. Although I have limited experience with them, just going off what I have read, and how others are reacting to the same dose, I had a real feeling that something was "opened" during my 5-MeO experience.

Also experienced a "resurfacing" a few times weeks after. I remember the first time it happened almost a week exactly. I was laying in my bed trying to all asleep when I felt my self start to "go" there. It really freaked the shit out of me until I realized I could stop myself from going. I played around a bit with mediation trying to see if I could induce it, and for a bit I was sure I could. But every time I got close to "going" it would freak me out and I would snap out of it.

..yes, a few times...and this is my personal perspective, i realise each has their own..
it can move and shift energy at lower doses, but beyond that it's not what i'm looking for...i do a lot of practice in non-mind and ego-dissolution prior to entheogens, so i'm not looking for something that forcefully does that in the way it can..i firmly believe the key to even the most ego-dissolving of entheogens is to maintain the awareness..this is why i was suggesting that at higher doses, dmt leads to the same 'absoluteness' but with a greater sense of 'recall'..
absolute void and it's opposite become the same thing..it's how to approach it, and there are different ways, like buddhist 'vs' vedanta..of which i lean to the latter..

based on 'body' instinct 5meo is not something i would work with much, ever..it just feels that way to me..also, i've seen certain kinds of subtle aggression and personality changes in others, which i sensed with this compound (body resitance, maybe..or maybe something else..) which i'm not comfortable with..but as the previous posts say, it widely varies in how it affects people (which in itself suggests caution) ..it's not particularly visual, but to me more 'serious' than ecstatic..i prefer a fuller picture..

i think it is more useful in combination with dmt..back in the 90s a few people in E.R. described the combination of 5meo-dmt and dmt as 'the power, and the glory'..that combination, vaporised, is about as far as you can go, as far as i'm concerned..but the question remains (after such an experience, and before) ..why do you need to go? what are you looking for? do you really need to know in this lifetime?!

to me, beyond 'white light' is the clear light...different paths will get different people there, different teachers..
so i would chose, for an entheogen, dmt not 5meo-dmt..and ultimately not requiring any entheogen is where it leads for me..but, in summary, plant dmt i trust more..
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"Your focus determines your reality."
(Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jin)
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you know..i think this is actually quite an important thread..
this is, afterall, the DMT-Nexus, and we can vouch through collective knowledge for the relative safety of DMT compared to many (if not most) other visionary substances..but with 5meo-DMT we have a less charted, and, as gibran2 suggests, increasingly 'fashionable' (my word) compound..as much information and as many perspectives as can be gleaned on the subject are important..

jamie wrote:
..ain't it true

i thought i'd add, i was at a small gig in about 1992 where Terence was talking (about the not so well known at the time DMT), and someone asked him what he thought of 5-methoxy-DMT and he said something like 'to me it's like having a shortwave radio, when you can have a full colour television' (meaning dmt, lol)

but, let's let Terence talk for himself..

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While the idea may be unsettling, I don't find the "opening door" phenomenon of 5-MeO to be entirely surprising. In the case of the much more visual DMT, many of us are well familiar with the running after-effects in the days after consuming DMT. Colors, patterns, etc...are easily brought back on in the following days, particularly under moments of stress, sleepiness, meditation or various forms of intoxication. We know that in rabbits, DMT remains in the serotonin vessicles for up to a week after administration. I therefore am not surprised by this "flashback" type of phenomenon from 5-MeO, and find it reasonable to expect it to be different in quality and duration from those experienced after consuming DMT.

I know that DMT has created the "doors open" effect for myself. Even during my 2 year hiatus, I still felt those doors to be open. I am sensitive to energy and mild colorful hallucinations in a way that had never occurred prior to DMT consumption.

I personally do not find 5-MeO to be incredibly enticing. I don't look forward to doing it in the same way that I am for DMT, even though 5-MeO can bring on strong euphoria. I don't find ego-dissolution to be entirely compelling or I would be a much bigger fan of salvia. Similar to salvia, 5-MeO exerts strong effects on the sense of touch, but in more of a DMT meets MDMA kind of style. Also similar to MDMA is this huge sense of love, and feeling good, but devoid of much meaningful content. I mean, I see large fields of holograms, but there's no meaning in any of it. As someone above mentioned, there could be little sense in calling one entheogen superior to another, but if we're going to delineate preferences, then I am entirely on the DMT side of the fence. It feels safer psychologically and physiologically, it is more information-rich, detailed, colorful, and the feelings and sensations are just exponentially easier for me to cope with. I concur with nen when he talks about how 5-MeO seems more serious than ecstatic. Within half of a second of it coming on, I'm in waaay too deep for my liking. Additionally, sometimes I may get a bit tired or drowsy after DMT, but there have been several times now where I get this "burnt" feeling coming down from 5-MeO. I suppose I'm not ready to stop experimentation until I've had a breakthrough with 5-MeO, but I'm not exactly looking forward to that nor planning on a next experiment any time soon.