In my time perusing the Nexus, and other psychedelic-related forums, I've noted that there seem to be two different experiences that both come with the label "ego death," which I've started to think of as "Hard" and "Soft" Ego Death.

"Soft" Ego Death seems to happen more frequently at lower doses, and it's a sense that, while the experiencer is still having a 1st hand experience of existing, all the mental associations they have about themselves (their name, history, self-concept, etc), have been shed, leaving some kind of pure 'self.' That self, however, is still self-aware, and still understands itself as something different from the outside world (i.e. it can draw the distinction between that which is it, and that which is not it).

"Hard" Ego Death is something that I've only seen described at high doses (+3.5 g of magic mushrooms, or very high doses of LSD), and that gets described as a total breakdown of the boundaries between the 'self' and the 'the universe.' It becomes impossible to distinguish where one ends and the universe begins. The internal monologue and subjective experience of being 'I' ends. This seems closer to the transcendental states described by early mystics in their writings on religious experience, while "Soft" Ego Death is more psychoanalytical or cognitive. "Soft" Ego death occurs in all cases of "Hard" ego death, but not vise versa. "Hard" ego death is almost like loosing consciousness, and more prone to descriptions such as "union," "becoming one with," or "God."

Does this resonate with anyone else?

Blessings
~ND

I am very interested what others have to say.

Thank you for sharing your insight. It helps me understand why starting with a lower dose and gradually working up is so important.

Lower doses are less dramatic and easier to intergrate. Much intergration can be done before the experience of total ego death, making it easier to intergrate.

I guess I could get behind the idea there is more than one level of ego-death, but why two? Why not a continuous spectrum? But anyways, it's great that you thought of this. This sort of classification just hasn't been done in any legitimate capacity as far as I know of.

That being said, what you call "hard ego-death" I would rather call simply "death". It is not just dissolution/death of the ego, but rather it is full-on disappearance into the void. Coming back from it isn't just like putting your clothes back on; it's more like being reborn.

Regarding the semantics (if we are coining terms here), these could be called "ego-death" and "self-death", "soft" and "hard" ego-death, or "weak" and "strong" ego-death. "soft" and "hard" is fine with me. My main concern is that the experiences you describe are not actually two different versions of the same thing.

I have no idea if they're the same phenomena at two different intensities, or entirely different ones that we just happen to talk about in similar ways because our language lacks the appropriate nuances. I suspect they are different, at least on a neurological level (my hunch is that they probably are associated with reductions in activity in separate brain regions, although I'd be hard pressed to tell you which ones, beyond that I'm *sure* the temporal lobe is 'off' in the case of 'hard' ego death.

I do like 'Strong' and 'Weak' better than 'Hard' and 'Soft.'

The reason I chose two is because I wanted to highlight what I see as the primary difference between the two: whether the boundary between internal and external exists or not. Obviously a spectrum is better, but the problem with gradients (and why sometimes I find dichotomies more useful, even if not technically correct) is that the bigger picture can get lost. There's totally a gradient to all of these things, but there's a stark contrast between what I see as 'Soft' and 'Hard,' and I wanted to reflect that in my language.

Blessings
~ND

I think that is pretty accurate, i feel that ego-death is what these substances do and it's just a matter of how they do it, which is usually dose dependent but not always, i think it's good to know about the relationship between entheogens and ego-death in order to help from falling into fearful mind-states but i don't think that this outlook is absolutely necessary, i took mushrooms at moderate doses for years and never really thought about ego-loss that much

On light to moderate doses i've found ego-loss to be quite subtle, killing me softly if you will... i find that to elicit release at these doses usually involves a practice that sensitizes one to the substance like meditation/contemplation, laying down with eyes closed, listening to music can help and even dancing, on even really low doses it's possible to come to the point where one is in a deep state of surrender/openess yet there is still consciousness, a body, and some semblence of identity

On higher doses i find it's much the same just much more forceful, so whether i consciously meditate or not it's usually going to happen, if i don't distract myself and meditate then it can come to the point where i lose all physical reference of self and even lose consciousness itself... i do feel that it's possible to go just as deep with much lower doses it just takes more sensitization/deeper meditation

Neat topic. Great description of the entheogen catalyzed ego dissolution process.

I would encourage those interested to check out, Michael Hoffman's "egodeath.com" site. While a bit academic and somewhat dismissive of non entheogen techniques, his theory rings true. I short, Hoffman's assertion is that ALL religion and myth are allegory for the ENTHEOGEN ENGENDERED ego death journey. He argues that all traditions sprang from this plant induced transcendental state and that alternative modalities(chant, drumming, fasting, meditation, starvation, extreme physical challenge, etc) are but adjuncts. His sense is that plant entheogens were/are the most effective, ergonomic, practical, reliable and reproducible means for achieving the "mystic state" that is indeed ARCHETYPAL, universal, ancestral and antecedent to ALL human myth and religion.

While Hoffman's tone and attitude can be off putting, he's on to something worth study by interested Nexians. Once one has experienced a few egodeath journeys, soft and hard, the realization is, that this innate human capacity(spiritual orgasm) can be likened to physical orgasm in that it is essentially universal if the appropriate catalysts are available.

In addition to his ideas re the universality of the "mixed wine" induced state as progenitor to all human religio-mythology, his ontological description of the egodeath experience(time stoppage and loss/absence of personal autonomy/controllership) is fascinating and accurate.

There is also the fearful self dissolution, and the euphoric oceanic self-dissolution.
The first is when you get cut off of everything, and the second when you unite with everything.

I would say the whole thing is more of an continuum.
It can be anything inbetween soft and harsh, fearful or liberating.

As I define it, ego death is the loss of biographical memory – a sort of amnesia. Not only forgetting “who”, but sometimes even forgetting “what”.

Though we may forget personal history, there always remains a sense of “self”. I would argue that a sense of self is always present, even in the most extreme “union” experiences:

If a phenomenon is perceived or experienced, there is, by definition, a perceiver or experiencer. There is always a perceiving “self”. The perceiver’s appearance may change – from a particular human being, to an identity-less human being, to a being of unidentifiable origin, to “unity” or “god” – but the perceiver is constantly and eternally “present”.

What is being called “hard” or “strong” ego death is not ego death at all, but rather a realization: There is only “one” – the Ultimate Perceiver, Consciousness, God, All – whatever you want to call it. The more fully this is realized, the further one moves away from a personal identity.

Gibran2: The reports included here that come about from taking Thumbprint sized-doses of LSD seem to point to a "Hard" Ego Death. The author writes:



I feel like something like a paler version of this happened to me on a mushroom experience about two years ago at this point - there was a feeling of 'zooming out' and all that was left was the forest I was in. I don't recall any internal monologue or any real sense of existing, just that the forest existed. It's a bit tricky to describe.

Blessings
~ND

I guess it’s just a different way of defining/describing the same phenomenon. The quote states “There is no I anymore only ALL.” I’m suggesting that “ALL” is a “self”. It is the only “I” there is!

Yeah, no matter how obliterated the awareness behind my eyes and the phenomenal world becomes, no matter how dissolved/dissolute the experience becomes - there is still a perception of the experience - a perceiver/awareness. My strongest psychedelic experience to date was several years back with a bong, huge dose of changa all in one breath; instantaneous experience - while that experience utterly shredded every conceivable datum of what i knew, destroying destruction itself, just endlessly becoming the allthatis - there was still the perceiver, the awareness, no matter how dissolute and transcendental and deep it went.



This.

Yeah I know what you are a talking about I've experienced both of these, on the hard ego death I was destroying my ego and then had a short term memory loss from complete ego death but on the soft one it was more like a detachment from my ego on one level but it wasn't destroyed

"Soft" ego death, for me, is like tranquilizing the ego. It is still there but it loosens its grip on me. It could fly away at any moment with meditation and concentration but could easily be reeled back in. With soft ego death I am more aware (and in control) that it is happening. I can "play" with it more...

"Hard" or "strong" ego death, for me, is a complete dissolution and separation from me, myself and I...usually while being ripped out of my body. It is a state of being in which I am completely free from the confines of everyday "reality". It is terrifying when it happens sometimes but usually puts me in a state of bliss shortly thereafter. Sometimes (more often than not), during a hard ego death, it is like a relentless smashing of the ego. Beaten out of me, so to speak, until it no longer exists inside my consciousness. But I believe that happens because sometimes I am afraid to let go [of my ego] even if I had the intention of doing so before a journey.

The funny thing about egos is they always seem to come back...

Interesting topic. And since I like to classify things, I have added a new entry to Hyperspace lexicon. Big thanks to everybody who have contributed (or may contribute in the future) to this new terminology!

I met my ego once in a lucid level dream and i was waking about in this little dream town that seemed abandoned except for this clown i observed looking down at me from a forth floor balcony in the dream...

I remember looking up at him and saying out loud ..[Im the boss here ! ]

He looked down at me and just laughed exclaming he was boss...

I was claiming to be boss because knowing i was in a dream..i wanted absolute .....
[DREAM CONTROL]..to be able to ..fly ...walk through walls... push through glass and feel it stretch like rubber as i passed through it..even enter the gates of heaven and return if i choose..

I wanted absolute mastery of my lucid dreaming skills.. but this [dream carector] who i seemed to know wouldent alow me this total control.../

After waking in bed i had the strange feeling that this [dream carector]was my alter ego?

and he was causing a mental block within me preventing me from mastering lucid dreaming something i spent years studing long before i ever tryed dmt..

I think in dreaming we must break through layers of consciousness similar to the dmt experiance...

To me, I human invented ego (imagined artificial representation of an illusionary self) as a tool of development, with the higher goal of survival. I have to seperate, even if I am never seperated at all, or at least create the illusion of seperation to enable complex processes of my mind (f.e. reflexion). Ego itself is neutral, it is a rasing "body"sensation in my human experience to which I can stick or not. In one of my first trips the impression crossed my mind, that I keep and treat my personalities as lovely pets, a game. I am the space which provides existence.

I experience myself in an ongoing transformation of crystalisation and liquididation, based on a constant flow of awareness. I am here and welcome everything who/which is looking for me, I am a palace of pure energy, open to every lifeform to experience me. Life is experiencing itself.

Namaste, tseuq

Thanks for the link, lots of reading for my ego to do there

I have to say the idea that all spiritual traditions sprang from plant entheogens is going a bit too far in my opinion, there have been many people that spontaneously awakened without even having known about the plant teachers let alone taken one.

To believe we need anything outside ourselves to realize the nature of ourselves is a fundamental mistake... i look forward to looking through the site though .

Chronic, not to besmirch spontaneous or non entheogen engendered means of achieving the intense mystic/ego death state. The deeply held conviction is, that for the vast majority of average humanoids extant during any particular era(most people that have ever lived), entheogens offer the only practical, realistic, ergonomic, reproducible and EFFECTIVE means for entering the life changing, paradigm shifting, ego shattering, consensus reality melting, mind blowing, never forgotten, UNITIVE mind state.

This observation of fact(for most people), in no way relegates prayer, meditation, contemplation, etc to an inferior status. These tools are essential for integration of the "hyperspace" realms revealed to most average folks ONLY through the "mixed wine" pathway.

An open question to forum members: Are you able to(regularly, reproducibly, and with extreme level of intensity), enter consensus reality obliterating states of mind using non entheogenic modalities??? If so please share those techniques.

Peace

I do agree that entheogens can be among the most reliable/effective methods of revealing the unity of nature, but it's not always the case, i found that the deepest experiences actually came after having stopped taking psychedelics for a while to get real about meditation, then when i came back i felt i was appreciating the experiences much more








While it's not always extremely intense (yet certainly can be) i find it's always possible to thin out the thinking mind leaving the substratum of awareness as it is through meditation, i find self-inquiry particularly helpful

Thanks for you're input

for the first few years of my current interest in all things psychedelic i found it impossible to believe i could ever achieve anything like the experiences that i had achieved under the influence.

after about 3 years of single pointed meditation i have now achieved a sort of transition of the self into a black void in which there was no semblance of the self left, just awareness in a void.

The first time i just flicked back and forth for a short time and the second i dissolved unknowingly and was only brought back by the sound of the singing bowl at the end of a yoga class.

I now think these states may well be achievable with more effort, maybe not as intense as 50mg in a GVG but certainly enough to allow realisation/wake up to occur