I hope i didnt offend you amandanita!

My post wasnt pointed at you at all, it was a general outline of my point.
If someone never goes to a dr and check their blood pressure, cholestrol etc then they can never know certain things.
Also if someone never been played sports or done any physical activity seriously then they cant understand.

Believe or not i have friends who are rawfood vegans/detox junkies, they have all lost a ton of weight and dont exersize much anymore except yoga.
They are kind people but are hard to argue with.
My point is that they claim to feel great and are talking about the higher vibrations they float on nowadays.
One of the girls has also stopped getting her period but she thinks its a good thing and its all the cleansing that doing good.
Its a form of anorexia what those people are doing but im not putting everyone in this category.




But not even a century ago being very fit was a necesity to survive, its in our genes to be in as good shape as we can.
Look at underdeveloped countries for instance.
In india (alot of vegans i know) the 70yo ladies have back erectors like powerlifters, they have alot less orthopedic issues than most western countries.
This goes for most places where people are forced to use their body all day long. Its what its made for.



Also i want to clarify that i never bashed or judged vegans or rawfood people. It can be a very healthy lifestyle and i have huge respect for anyone who tries to pull it off.
But im very tired to hear all these claims that its better in any form than a balanced diet containing all food groups.
Cause the evidense is not supporting it yet.
If the science comes along to back it up then im ready to change my opinion.



I took a big shot at fruitarism which i stand by cause its not a healthy Sustainable diet.
Sure go on a fruit cleanse for 1week if you want to try, but longer than that will impact your health slowly but steady.
Ive pointed out several times that a vegan can live a very healthy life with some effort.

Im also curious to which statements you want me to backup?
I dont have the time to google around for 100random things really.
And i linked to probably the most reputable source on nutrition there is!
Its a Company dedicated to educating people to become nutrition experts.
Comeone son!
They dont claim a thing without sources on that page, however they also write about things that havent been proved yet.
So you can get a nuanced wiev off concepts like raw food, food polution, water quality etc.
Dont bash a source cause it looks to commercial for your taste.

So far ive stated pretty common sense things.
Like malnutrition leads to muscle atrophy and disease?? Isnt this something everyone knows?
To much fast carbs(fructose) leads to diabetes?? Comeone really??
Is it anything else i missed??



And its not just really my opinion that every human should be able to move and be able to do basic tasks that our body is designed to.
We are supposed to be able to run from a tiger or throw a big rock at a boar no matter age.
How would you make it through the day if you couldnt

Its our lifestyle that is artificial and has made us forget this, but we are no different from the indian in the amazon who still live from nature everyday.

thank you for clarifying/explaining, I appreciate it a lot



Yeah... I know. I know the dark side to these things. Just please remember it's not the same for everyone. I really want to try to be healthy! As healthy as I can anyway, perhaps not by your standard but at least by mine.




I understand this. I have been active for most of my life. I'm not very active now, but I think being active before balances it out a little bit. And I go out and do things with my body, even if it's nothing heavy or not a lot...



Thank you for the clarification. I don't think I made that claim, if my wording suggested that I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention.



The science supporting a balanced vegan diet seems to be out already.



I don't think I ever said anyone would be healthy eating a fruitarian diet for the rest of their life. Maybe someone can be healthy that way! I think there's nothing wrong with it if you do it for a short while though. It made me feel good and gave me energy. But so does a raw vegan diet and that's sustainable for the rest of my life if I take care of my protein and fat needs and I'm going to do that. I'm still tweaking my diet, adjusting things and making it healthier. I'm not done yet



Well, times change. We should still be able to do things but maybe we don't need as much strength as our ancestors after all. We don't have to run from tigers anymore!

That is a broad but valid critique of how science tends to run its way more often than it should.



Of course not doing that. Where is the evidence that a fruitarian diet is superior ?



A similiar problem occurs if you let people who followed a standard american diet before go vegan. Of course their health will improve, but they are also cutting out a ton of crap "food".



My main problem was/is with fruitarianism. So there is a scientific debate at all, that a diet only composed of fruits is actually healthy? I would like to learn more.



Now, but without muscles you won't forever.



Now. The body is very resilient, but some environmental variables come into play much later in life.

@inaniel



This thread started with an assumption: that a fruitarian diet might be healthy. This claim hasn't been backed up. Why should there be a defense, before a proper attack has been mounted?



The analogy wasn't aimed at any "content" but to illustrate a faulty argument structure. Science does not have to prove god to be valid. But then, religion does not have to be provable to be valid either.

@syn



Been a vegetarian for 20+ years now, just so there is no confusion of me beeing a part of any "cult"



Tomatoes are also fruits...but that's semantics, really. By a fruitarian diet i think of what most people would call a "fruit" - and that's a "sugary vegetable".



It's great that so many raw vegans are so conscious about what they eat. The MCT oils you are speaking of are also quite handy for weightloss.

[deleted]

Edit:

Since my initial post @ SHroomtroll is now rather redundant, due to his statement I've overseen, I just leave the videos and delete the initial post.

Vegan strongman:




I mean, all you need are essential nutrients. They are ubiquitous in vegan sources.

Here's a lengthy talk about soy from him, if anyone is interested:

The first post in this thread says "Anyone considering a fruitarian or a vegan diet can find all the helpful information contained in this thread right here," and is followed by information. As far as I can recall, there hasn't been an instance where any of the vegan or raw vegan posters said "everyone needs to eat this way" or "anyone who doesn't eat this way is unhealthy." Where is the attack?


However, a few people have come in and said various things to the effect that eating vegan or raw vegan is unhealthy. Someone mentioned diabetes. As far as i know most people in the united states that have diabetes are not vegetarians or vegans or fruitarians considering only like 3% of americans are vegetarian/vegan. If someone states otherwise there needs to be good science or studies to back it up. The facts haven't been posted, only generalized conjecture.


Someone has, however, posted a study that showed vegetarian and vegan diets can be healthy. Is that not good enough?. There are numerous examples of individuals who thrive on a vegan diet, athletes and posters here. Is that too not good enough?


I don't go to the doctor, but at my job (whole foods) we can get tested for various health markers once a year to increase our discount from 20% to either 22%, 25%, 27%, or 30%. While on my raw vegan diet I passed with flying colors and got 30% off. Only a few other people in my store have that discount, and we have several hundred employees. How did i achieve what hardly anyone else could with such an unhealthy diet?



Which is the faulty argument exactly? Its lost on me.

I think the first post has been edited, i don't know. I looked at the arguments...and all i could find were some bold claims with the suggestion to "look it up". Why not just post the studies, if you are making an argument? Why should anyone respond to any claim if they are not backed up by anything?

Again, my qualms are mainly with eating just fruits as in apples, pears, bananas etc etc.



Thats a pretty nice accomplishment

I would like to qualify my previous claim of fruitarianism. Back in 1999 and 2000 during my first encounter with a raw vegan and fruitarian lifestyle, everyone I knew who was familiar with it, considered all leaves and fruiting bodies to be fair game in a fruitarian diet. The only differences between the two diets were essentially root vegetables and seeds/nuts. Periods of sweet fruit only or mono-dieting were treated in a similar fashion as fasting; something that was used as a short term means to an end, but not a complete diet.

I'd also like to state that most would consider me a somewhat heavily muscled individual, and dense, walk on the bottom of the swimming pool muscle at that. Work hard from dawn to dusk muscle, not some Nancy-boy, fluffed up with blood from a couple hours in the gym muscle. The couple of year long periods of my experience would be plenty of time IMO for any atrophy to present itself. My muscle became far more dense with a thin and aesthetically pleasing layer of fat just under the skin. By any possible subjective measure, from disease resistance to libido, I enjoyed an excellent state of health that was leaps and bounds beyond the great majority of people I encountered (and not just SAD dieters either).

As has been previously stated in this thread, though not in the same manner; the measures of health that don't take the obvious self observed indications into account are lacking a major piece of the picture. If my state of health is such that I'm stronger, smarter, and more resistant to disease and physical/psychological stresses than I'd be if I engaged in the 'recommended' diet then whatever could be measured in my blood etc, would be an indication of idyllic levels for at least some portion of the population.

I have strayed a fair distance from this lifestyle over the last eight years or so, but there's nothing in this thread that has discouraged me from my decision to slowly transition back into it. I have weathered my previous trial period with it and I'm convinced, I'm simply one of the people that's well suited to it.

Thats a beast of a man right there.
Ive heard of him before but never seen him lift or so.
Gonna check out the vids later.
One needs to know though that all lifters at those levels are on a cocktail of drugs that make it possible.


Ive actually pondered the thought to try living vegan for a few months in the near future.
Mostly since i enjoy variation and experementation.
And if im gonna act like a nomad then i need to be handle longer periods without my prefered food choices.

I just need to find better sources for protein since im kind of sensitive to legumes.
I can tolerate small amounts of beans or lentills but not daily.
I guess i could start with just not eating meat for a while and still use milk based products. and alot of hemp protein.