We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Tcha'i - Shipibo Mecaline Cactus and Ayahuasca Options
 
travsha
#1 Posted : 5/29/2015 5:04:21 PM

Share Love ~


Posts: 597
Joined: 10-May-2015
Last visit: 13-Jun-2019
Location: Seattle
Not too long ago I met a local facilitator where I live who apprenticed to my Ayahuasquero in Peru. Since we had the same teacher but he had much more experience with la madre I decided to try a ceremony with him - I was very impressed!

So far I have only drank twice with him and I was especially impressed with the delicious taste and heart warming character of his brew. Besides containing Ayahuasca and chacruna it also contained coca, Pinot Blanco and a mescaline cactus called Tcha'i which the Shipibos use to make their brew stronger.

I actually had some of my best ceremonies ever with this guy, and I think a big part of that is just the quality of his tea and choice of admixture plants. I am especially close to San Pedro in my work so I think the small amount of mescaline really helped me go deep with Ayahuasca. I also really like coca and know that Pinot Blanco is a very positive loving plant (not psychoactive in any way), so I think they all kinda help out.

Sadly I can not share the amounts because I didnt make the tea myself, but the brew was less reduced then others I have drank (more watery), and I drank about 2 oz both nights (2 nights in a row). Maybe it was the admixtures, but I also think the less reduced tea tastes better - this went down easy and tasted pretty decent for medicine! (came up easy too Razz ).

Besides a slightly different quality to the visions I also noticed just an easier ability to let go fully with this brew and a huge heart opening character - I was ecstatic for 2 weeks after those 2 back-to-back ceremonies! I also had a lingering effect with the medicine - I actually felt like I was still altered from the Ayahuasca for the following 8 days (visuals and everything all day long). That might sound kinda scary to some, but for me it was really nice to keep connecting with the medicine (I am lucky my lifestyle is chill enough that I can handle it during my day-to-day).

One of the main reasons I had drank that weekend was to get more focused on my personal path/practice. Although San Pedro seems to be slightly in the forefront for me I work with a lot of plants, and sometimes wonder if I would be better of specializing on one or two. I also work with non-plant based practices and sometimes it just adds up to a lot.... I had recently had a tough 2 weeks and it was hard knowing which practice or medicine to turn to because I had so many choices....

Well, I got a big lesson in trusting my intuition! In ceremony I went through every single part of my practice asking Ayahuasca: "Is this my medicine?" She always replied "What does your heart tell you? What does God tell you?" I always knew the answer as soon as I focused on my heart or my prayer......

Guess I'm just a jack of all trades - always have been, and probably always will. Those ceremonies helped me see more how to fit things together better though - lots of inspiration as well as reassurance!

Planning on doing a coca dieta with him soon - which apparently includes 5-6 private Ayahuasca ceremonies during the 10 day isolation diet.... Excited to connect more with this specific recipe and to get a little more insight into how Tcha'i effects the brew! Kinda felt like a small preview on mixing San Pedro and Ayahuasca.... And actually, 6 days after ceremony while I was still feeling the leftover Ayahuasca vibes/visuals I did drink San Pedro - amazing experience and it felt like Ayahuasca was there the whole time.... I think they have a really nice synergistic effect even though I have never really mixed them at the same time.

I do hear that supposedly mescaline should be dangerous with an MAOI, but those lists also say bananas are dangerous and that is the most common food people eat with Ayahuasca, so I guess plant based MAOI's and reversible MAOI's like in Ayahuasca are just miles different then the pharmacutical crap. I have talked to a good number of people who have combined Ayahuasca and San Pedro (some retreats in Ecuador even do this), and so far I have only heard good experiences. I did want to mention this though in case readers get inspired to try it themselves - there is a theoretical risk mixing! Be careful, although I think if you go with smaller doses of each you should be fine.... The small amounts in the Tcha'i were certainly not a problem!
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
pinkoyd
#2 Posted : 5/31/2015 3:43:13 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Extraordinary knowledgeSenior Member

Posts: 372
Joined: 29-Sep-2009
Last visit: 15-Feb-2024
Location: Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
IME Pedro and ayahuasca are entirely compatible. Back in the '90s people in the entheogenic community were exploring exactly this. No one I'm aware of ever had any bad reactions. In fact the consensus was that ayahuasca magnified the effects of pedro by roughly four times. The combination is in fact my current favorite. No worries here about taking them together! Very happy
I already asked Alice.

 
jamie
#3 Posted : 5/31/2015 8:58:37 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Salvia divinorum expert | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growingSenior Member | Skills: Plant growing, Ayahuasca brewing, Mushroom growing

Posts: 12340
Joined: 12-Nov-2008
Last visit: 02-Apr-2023
Location: pacific
so they are adding opuntia? The only cacti I know to be used traditionally with ayahuasca that contains mescaline is a species of Opuntia.
Long live the unwoke.
 
downwardsfromzero
#4 Posted : 6/12/2015 1:22:21 PM

Boundary condition

ModeratorChemical expert

Posts: 8617
Joined: 30-Aug-2008
Last visit: 07-Nov-2024
Location: square root of minus one
jamie wrote:
so they are adding opuntia? The only cacti I know to be used traditionally with ayahuasca that contains mescaline is a species of Opuntia.

A botanical binomial for Tcha'i would settle this. So far my searches have turned up nothing; non-english google might help...




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
Morris Crowley
#5 Posted : 6/24/2015 5:10:29 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 68
Joined: 17-Sep-2012
Last visit: 13-Feb-2018
downwardsfromzero wrote:
A botanical binomial for Tcha'i would settle this. So far my searches have turned up nothing; non-english google might help...


Asked and answered: Brasiliopuntia brasiliensis. See Trout's Cactus Chemistry by Species 2014 edition for fuller details. Pages 9 and 79 of the Light version. Also Stuart 2002.

Original reference to tchai goes to Rivier & Lundgren 1972. They say it is a species of Opuntia.

This is followed up by Bianchi & Samorini 1993. They were told that it was now used by itself, no longer mixed with ayahuasca-type brews because it was too strong.

Further followed up by Stuart 2002 (given as Stuart 2003 without full citation by Trout, but properly attributed year and journal in the text, quoted below). Stuart collected vouchered specimens which Trout ID'd as Brasiliopuntia. Stuart also bioassayed the material.

From p.79 of Trout's Cactus Chemistry by Species 2014 Light:
Quote:
While in Peru Stuart also bioassayed it multiple times; first under guidance of the shaman and later independently. After repeated failures while working directly with the shaman, Stuart concluded anything he was experiencing was entirely due to the green tobacco that was being added to the expressed juice of the tchai leaf. Stuart tested this by secretly ingesting a much larger amount of the plant without tobacco and in combination with an MAOI.

Stuart proposed that the story may have been created to satisfy the questions of ethnobotanists desiring to be told of even more ayahuasca admixtures. Perhaps bolstered by noticing the ethnobotanists were not checking the claims with bioassays.

The interesting and entertaining account of his adventure can be found in the 2002 Entheogen Review.


Trout also discussed this issue in Ayahuasca: Alkaloids, Plants & Analogs.

References
  • Bianchi, Antonio & Giorgio Samorini (1993) “Plants in Association with Ayahuasca.” pp. 21-42 in Christian Rätsch & John R. Baker (Eds.) Jahrbuch für Ethnomedicine and the Study of Consciousness, Issue 2.
  • Rivier, Laurent & Jan-Erik Lindgren (1972) Economic Botany, 26: 101-129. “ “Ayahuasca”, the South American Hallucinogenic Drink: an Ethnobotanical and Chemical Investigation.”
  • Stuart, R (2002) Entheogen Review, 11(2): 58-61. “Tchai.”
  • Trout, K. (2014) Cactus Chemistry by Species Light (2014-e). http://www.largelyaccura...nmedia.com/LAIM/C10.html
Follow me on Twitter (@morris_crowley) and on Facebook

Help us grow The Nexian
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.024 seconds.