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DMT and its associated receptor, from a neuroscience perspective. Options
 
Psilosopher?
#1 Posted : 5/28/2015 3:23:47 AM

Don't Panic

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So, I've been looking at the receptors involved in the ingestion of DMT. It is the sigma-1 receptor. All other agonists that bind to this receptor are SSRIs, or serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Except DMT, which is actually similar in structure to serotonin. So you have SSRI's, which inhibit the reuptake of serotonin, allowing serotonin to bind to receptors multiple times. And then you have DMT. I'm not sure what to make of it. It doesn't seem like pure coincidence. I'm not even sure why it would bind to the sigma-1 receptor. Due to it's structure, I thought it would bind to 5-HT, the serotonin receptor. Having said that, there does seem to be a link with serotonin and DMT. I guess this is already known, with the interaction of MAOIs.

The reason I started researching this is because I was wondering why DMT is quickly broken down by the body. Why is the body so eager to break it down? But there are rarely any negative side effects. Most people don't have neurological problems with DMT use, bearing in mind the only source of this conclusion is anecdotal evidence from the internet. So I thought that maybe the body isn't eager to break it down, and DMT is merely a spandrel. In other words, since DMT has a similar structure to serotonin, maybe the body wants to break down serotonin, and since DMT is similar, it gets broken down too.

So my thought patterns traveled to MAOIs. MAOIs inhibit the action of monoamine oxidase, which is responsible for the breakdown of the monoamine neurotransmitters. Some examples of these are dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline and our favourite, DMT. All of these neurotransmitters have short effects. Dopamine is involved in the work-reward pathway. It is responisble for goal-directed behaviour. That feeling of accomplishing something as well as the buildup to that accomplishment, it dissipates after a short time. That initial exhilaration after you complete that major project, is gone after minute or two. You come back to the more-or-less neutral state. Same thing applies to laughing at a joke. Everyone laughs hard for a minute, and then they are back to neutral. Serotonin is associated with happiness. People don't maintain the same level of happiness throughout an event, like their childs birth or something. It peaks, and then goes down. Adrenaline is an emergency neurotransmitter. It is in crystal form in the adrenal glands. And once your flight or fight experience ends, you start to calm down. I'm attributing monoamine oxidase to the diminishing effects of these neurotransmitters. In other words, monoamine oxidase is starting to break them down. This explains the role of MAOIs in changa, it lengthens the experience by preventing the breakdown of DMT. So MAO is selective for monoamine neurotransmitters. DMT falls under this category. I can't think of any conceivable reason why DMT needs to be broken down quickly. It is even harder to find this out considering its role in the stable human brain. The only thing I know is speculation, involved in life or death situations. Perhaps its your body's way of saying, "It's over. Better go out with some enlightenment." This is purely under the assumption that it has a purpose. The notion of a purpose is associated with a creator, so I won't go down that road. For arguments sake, I'll assume DMT is a spandrel. A very awesome and unique spandrel.

Sorry for blabbing on, but I think I'm onto something, but I also think I'm just reciting already established knowledge. This is just the ramblings of a madman. All I want to know is "Am I making sense? Or am I talking out of my arse?"
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
 

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fathomlessness
#2 Posted : 5/28/2015 1:33:47 PM

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The way I see it is that these molecular formations (dmt included) may be general to the galaxy and the many different planets in it and so you get some lifeforms that have trace amounts and some lifeforms that use it like we use dopamine.

Who knows, somewhere in andromeda there might be shady people harvesting dopamine from trees Laughing

But seriously, there is no coincidence this thing grows in bark and can suddenly transport the only intelligent creature on earth to another dimension... Only narrow minded scientists & atheists think things like this are coincidences, the sort that would rather say that the whole universe is unintelligent if they thought they could get away with it!Razz

There is some good info about the supposed uses for DMT in the body here:

What does DMT do in the body?

check Alisoka's post in this thread Endogenous DMT: Facts and Fiction
 
Nathanial.Dread
#3 Posted : 5/28/2015 2:56:47 PM

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Neuroscience student here, with my 2c.

Firstly though: if you're going to talk about receptors involved with ingestion of DMT, you shouldn't pass over the 5-HT2A, which is implicated in a lot of the visionary effects. Sigma-1 is interesting, but there is still a LOT of work to be done on the 5-HT2AR.

Most of what you're saying is generally accepted: MAOI breaks down endogenous neurotransmitters such as 5-HT, DA, and NorEpi, although it has roles elsewhere in the body, helping protect us from environmental toxins such as tyramine (which is why you need to go on a special diet if you're consuming MAOIs).

It's pretty clear that MAO's affinity for DMT is related to DMT's structural similarity to 5-HT, although I don't think it makes sense to say that the body "wants" to break down one or other. Evolution makes use of what it has. If DMT does have a functional role in the body/brain, I'm sure it does exactly what it needs to, even with the MAO activity.

The role of endogenous DMT is unclear, and I'm honestly not convinced that it has any particularly profound purpose in the brain: it may be essentially a sort of biochemical white-noise, resulting from random interactions of enzymes and substrates. It might, but I'd like to see more evidence before I back any one interpretation.

Also:
Not all agonists of the s1R are SSRIs (opipramol and lamotrigine have s1R activity w/out appreciable affinity for the SERT), however, and it may be that the antidepressent activity of s1R agonists may not be associated with altering 5-HT function. None of this is set in stone, however.

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
Psilosopher?
#4 Posted : 5/29/2015 9:59:09 AM

Don't Panic

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fathomlessness wrote:
But seriously, there is no coincidence this thing grows in bark and can suddenly transport the only intelligent creature on earth to another dimension... Only narrow minded scientists & atheists think things like this are coincidences, the sort that would rather say that the whole universe is unintelligent if they thought they could get away with it!Razz


Here's the thing, I am a scientist. And I do think the universe is unintelligent. It's is purely chaotic. To say the universe is vast is an understatement. To me, it is not a sentient being that thinks for itself. The universe just is the universe. It is time and space. Without it, nothing would exist. And the only reason we can conceive of this, let alone discuss it hundreds of kilometres away using computers, is because we have brains and we have consciousness. I'd like to think that DMT has some sort of purpose that we haven't discovered yet. But that's the key, discovery. Without it, it wouldn't mean much.

I'm baked out of my mind. I don't know if I made sense. I think I did, though.


Nathanial.Dread wrote:
Neuroscience student here, with my 2c.

Firstly though: if you're going to talk about receptors involved with ingestion of DMT, you shouldn't pass over the 5-HT2A, which is implicated in a lot of the visionary effects. Sigma-1 is interesting, but there is still a LOT of work to be done on the 5-HT2AR.

Most of what you're saying is generally accepted: MAOI breaks down endogenous neurotransmitters such as 5-HT, DA, and NorEpi, although it has roles elsewhere in the body, helping protect us from environmental toxins such as tyramine (which is why you need to go on a special diet if you're consuming MAOIs).

It's pretty clear that MAO's affinity for DMT is related to DMT's structural similarity to 5-HT, although I don't think it makes sense to say that the body "wants" to break down one or other. Evolution makes use of what it has. If DMT does have a functional role in the body/brain, I'm sure it does exactly what it needs to, even with the MAO activity.

The role of endogenous DMT is unclear, and I'm honestly not convinced that it has any particularly profound purpose in the brain: it may be essentially a sort of biochemical white-noise, resulting from random interactions of enzymes and substrates. It might, but I'd like to see more evidence before I back any one interpretation.

Also:
Not all agonists of the s1R are SSRIs (opipramol and lamotrigine have s1R activity w/out appreciable affinity for the SERT), however, and it may be that the antidepressent activity of s1R agonists may not be associated with altering 5-HT function. None of this is set in stone, however.

Blessings
~ND


I'm a microbiology/parasitology student, but I have studied a lot of neuroscience. The structural affinity of MAO to DMT could be a coincidence. DMT isn't released endogenously too often, so maybe whatever enzyme is best suited for the job breaks it down, and that happens to be MAO.

I'm not one of those people who think that because it is natural, it is good. Snake venom is natural, but I don't want that in my bloodstream. I can't even imagine what DMT's true purpose is. Perhaps it is a gateway to the soul, or perhaps the idea of a soul came from the effects of DMT/other psychedelics on our physiology. This is a gray area, much like religion. You can't prove it, but you can't fully disprove it either.

Do you think the notion that DMT's affinity with MAO is a spandrel has some validity?
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
 
dreamer042
#5 Posted : 5/29/2015 4:51:11 PM

Dreamoar

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Bodhisativa wrote:
DMT isn't released endogenously too often, so maybe whatever enzyme is best suited for the job breaks it down, and that happens to be MAO.

Endogenous DMT is being created and metabolized in the body at all times, granted in very small amounts. 1,2

Bodhisativa wrote:
I'm not one of those people who think that because it is natural, it is good. Snake venom is natural, but I don't want that in my bloodstream. I can't even imagine what DMT's true purpose is. Perhaps it is a gateway to the soul, or perhaps the idea of a soul came from the effects of DMT/other psychedelics on our physiology. This is a gray area, much like religion. You can't prove it, but you can't fully disprove it either.

It's true we don't really know exactly what the purpose of this compound is, in nature or in our bodies, but we do have a lot of clues. It appears to have anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, and immunoregulatory effects in the human body as a Sigma 1 ligand. 3,4 It appears to play an anxiolytic role through activity at the Trace Amine receptors. 5 It also appears to display the properties of both a neurotransmitter and neuromodulator. 6,7 All this business about about soul gateways and whatnot is where things get tenuous. Large doses of exogenous dimethylated tryptamines certainly do provide subjective experiences that would lead one to conclude something like this is going on, but that's moving away from the hard data on the endogenous role of this compound and into the realm of correlation and speculation.

Bodhisativa wrote:
Do you think the notion that DMT's affinity with MAO is a spandrel has some validity?

DMT is simply one of many different monoamine compounds utilized by the body. I don't view it as some kind of outlier, it's just a simple tryptophan derivative that appears to play a variety of roles in human metabolism alongside a variety other very similar compounds (Serotonin, Melatonin, Tryptamine, NMT, Bufotenine, 5-MEO-DMT, Beta-carbolines, etc...)
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...

Visual diagram for the administration of dimethyltryptamine

Visual diagram for the administration of ayahuasca
 
Spiralout
#6 Posted : 5/29/2015 5:42:25 PM

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fathomlessness, dolphins and other cetaceans seem to have a brain capable or surpassing our cognitive abilities.


 
DreaMTripper
#7 Posted : 5/30/2015 12:09:29 PM

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Its very interesting that it acts is a potential neuromodulator.
I have had the question on my mind for some time now, could it be a left over amine from our ancestors? That maybe used it as some sort of regulator of a simpler system, over time maybe it became less and less dominant due to evolutionary factors?
It could go part way to explaining why we share them with plants and that possibly we evolved to use them in different ways due to its multifunctionality.
Going much further into speculation regarding its profound effects it has on human conciousness its interesting to think it could have played a part in the development of conciousness. If conciousness is emergent could it have been a key factor in it emerging, if conciousness is non-local and permeates everything then could it interact with it in the way of frequency and oscillations to shift our perspective of where we are in space-time.
 
Nathanial.Dread
#8 Posted : 5/30/2015 1:25:36 PM

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Bodhisativa wrote:


Do you think the notion that DMT's affinity with MAO is a spandrel has some validity?

It's hard to say, really, it's certainly possible. It comes back to the question of whether DMT production is actually something that has been evolutionary selected for, or if it's just a byproduct of other physiological functions.

I'm not sure what the MAO enzyme looks like in much detail, but I imagine that DMT looks enough like 5-HT that they can bind to the same active site, which means that the affinity of MAO to DMT might be a coincidence.

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
fathomlessness
#9 Posted : 6/1/2015 9:00:25 AM

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DreaMTripper wrote:

if conciousness is non-local and permeates everything then could it interact with it in the way of frequency and oscillations to shift our perspective of where we are in space-time.


That's more like it, hardcore dmt speculation!

I like the idea that the molecular formations in 3d reality form part of a higher dimensional constitution as well as consciousness itself existing partly in a higher dimension. So when DMT molecule is released into brain, the DMT-molecule's higher dimensional equivalent is interacting with the consciousness's higher dimensional equivalents and then we are left with wondering where the higher dimension is. It is the higher dimensions I tell you...

Higher Dimensions!!!

Big grin

I just can't accept that a neuromodulater like DMT is responsible for producing the same effects in all brains via 3 dimensional matter alone. Neurologists can't even explain the phenomena of how neurons produce conscious experience nor can they explain how DMT transports conscious experience to another realm consistently. Which leaves us to our nasty hardcore speculations.

spractral wrote:
fathomlessness, dolphins and other cetaceans seem to have a brain capable or surpassing our cognitive abilities.


Yes true, but they are not the ones being blasted in to other realms because of performing acid/base extractions on non-conscious organisms. Nor do they have artificial machines which compute at 33,860 trillion calculations per second compared to humans (max gamma 100 hz). If I wasn't so ingrained in to my belief systems (like so many people are) it would appear genuinely plausible to me that all of these inventions are alien in nature, perhaps that is what happens when lifeforms have some sort of use to extra-terrestrials... they come down and inhabit there forms and blend in disguise and teach and build complex machines all under the name of scienceLaughing It is a little strange though... 2 million years and only in the last 200 hundred years we are able to recreate primal forms of consciousness artificially with metals, silicone and electricity at speeds trillions of times faster than the brain, yep seems totally legit evolution...
 
 
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