How does one person figure out which non polar solvents are capable of extracting alkaloids that have been based using different bases?

For example, how can math prove that DMT from MHRB based with NaOH and extracted with Naphtha?
For example, how can math prove that DMT from MHRB based with sodium BIcarbonate CAN NOT be extracted with Naphtha?

How can I figure out if sodium carbonate and naptha can be used for DMT in MHRB?
How can I figure out if sodium carbonate and d-limonene can be used for DMT in MRHB?
How can I figure out if sodium carbonate and naphtha can be used for mescaline in San Pedro?
How can I figure out if sodium carbonate and d-limonene can be used for mescaline in San Pedro?

I understand that on this forum several people have already done a DMT/NaOH/Naptha, or a mescaline/carbonate/limonone, but I want to konw how from pure mathmatics can it be proved that DMT/NaOH/Naptha or mescaline/carbonate/limonene?

If someone can mathmatically prove these two methods, then couldn't someone mathmatically prove or disprove if DMT/carbonate/naptha work, DMT/carbonate/limonene, Mescaline/carbonate/naptha work etc.


There are some who say they have pulled DMT with sodium carbonate and naptha, but many say this isn't possible. Can't math find this out? Using PH and PKA and partition coefficients?

Some facts:

PKA of DMT freebase: 8.68
PKA of Mescaline freebase: 9.56

Conclusion:

If one can prove with a mathmatical forumla that NaOH can be used to base DMT to be extracted with Naptha, than one should also be able to prove or disprove the use of sodium carbonate and naptha, or sodium carbonate and d-limonene. One should also be able to prove or disprove if mescaline can be extracted with naphtha/d-limonene, by basing with sodium carbonate.

I'm new around here, but my basic high-school chemistry knowledge tells me that this question has a fairly complex answer, and one would probably have to have a pretty solid chemistry knowledge of the complex alkaloid molecules involved... the answer lies not so much in "math" but chemical equations and the way different ions combine to form different molecules, combined with how acids, bases, and polar and non-polar molecules interact in a solution...

i suppose if one knew the chemical symbol for all the molecules involved (including the alkaloid in question which would probably be long or at least complicated) one could set up an equation and try to "fill in the gaps"... but you'd still need some pretty good chem skillz

Crakkbakk,

There is nothing magical about the choice of bases and solvents. But re to your questions;

The choice of base is easier. Basically any base that can raise the pH above the pKa value of the desired alkaloid will do. pKa is the pH value at which 50% of the alkaloid is in freebase form and 50% in salt. For dmt with a pKa valueof 8.68 you' d want a pH of at least 9. So any base can be used that raises the pH above that point. The more basic the pH the better in this case. so for dmt sodium carbonate, ammonia, calcium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide potassium hydroxide all will do.

Choice of base can be problematic with alkaloids that are unstable at high pH ranges like psilocin. Psilocin has a pKa of 8.47 but it is unstable at pH above 10. In which case one has to be very careful when basifying. It may be safer to use weak bases like sodium carbonate or ammonia because strong bases like sodium hydroxide may overshoot the pH by accident.

Finally, if one is doing STB then he'd prefer to use a strong base to chemically lyse (destroy) the plant cells and release the alkaloids.

The choice of solvent is more tricky. Usually the physical property of logP is used in the choice of solvent. LogP is a measure of the propensity of a substance (whether solvent or target molecules) to be either lipid- or water- soluble. DMT has a LogP of 2.5 which means that it is fairly lipid soluble. One has to use a solvent at around this range to extract it efficiently. So DCM, xylene, toluene will be very good at extracting it. Hexane (logP 3.9) is not going to be as good and decane (with LogP of 5 is going to be even worse.

But this approach is not always accurate and some fiddling is required to find a good solvent. diethylether with a logP of 0.9 is pretty good at dissolving dmt. Likewise, Mescaline with a logP of 0.7 would not theoretically extract with xylene (logP 3.2) or limonene (logP 3.4) but it is extracted fairly well with these solvents. But hexane with a logP 3.9, hence slightly more lipophilic compared to xylene does not pull crap.

It is believed that the chemical structure of the solvents and respective alkaloids may account for such differences.

For some more information look aat Entropymancer's DMT extraction overview.

"pKa is the pH value at which 50% of the alkaloid is in freebase form and 50% in salt. For dmt with a pKa valueof 8.68 you' d want a pH of at least 9"

at pH 10 how much is freebase ? and if u take out all the freebase in the solution using naptha or whatever does more instantly convert - like 50% of the remaining salts turn to freebase ? to be picked up with the next pull ?
at pH 12 - is all the spice in freebase form ?

At pH of 10 roughly 5% is going to be in salt form and 95% in freebase.

and at pH of 12 0.05% will be in salt form and 99.95% in freebase. These numbers are predicted by simple calculations from the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation.

and yes, you're right, if one basifies at 8.68 and say he pulls (all of) the freebased spice using a good solvent, then the 50% of the remaining 50% in salt form will be turned to freebase. SWIM has never done spice extraction this way because it is unnecessarily complicated. It works though for psilocin where one can pull almost all the psilo with 3-4 pulls from pH of 9 without unnecessarily exposing this sensitive molecule to higher pH values.

Infundibulum, I once made a post here and ron69 said that sodium carbonate and naphtha probally wouldn't work, something to do with partition coefficients. Was he mistaken?

If I base high enough with sodium carbonate, will naphtha be able to pull it?


How much sodium carbonate must I use, anyways?

Thank you so much, your post was very helpful.