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What color is pure harmine? Options
 
Synkromystic
#1 Posted : 1/5/2015 1:36:43 PM

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So, what color is pure harmine. On the wiki there are pics of pure harmine as a dark brown crystal?

I have done many harmine/harmaline separations over the past few years and the first crystal to precipitate is always dark brown. The higher I raise the ph, the lighter the precipitate gets. This is in accordance with the pka values of the alkaloids. The lighter precipitate has a very heavy/stoned feel to it when ingested...I am assuming to be harmaline contamination. The darker brown crystal does not have a stoned feel to it but activates dmt just fine in my opinion.

I have seen a few claims here on the nexus that harmine is a tan colored powder and not dark brown.
 

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3rdI
#2 Posted : 1/5/2015 1:49:27 PM

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ive had very pale, almost white, extract from aya.

i normally get a tan coloured extract from rue, i dont normally seperate the harmine/harmaline, i have in the past but i dont remember the colours.
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endlessness
#3 Posted : 1/5/2015 1:58:35 PM

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White. So is pure harmaline.

At what pH are you precipitating? If you are doing it at pH 8.75, it will rather be that your harmaline will have harmine contamination, more than your harmine will have harmaline contam. Check this out.

I think the browner color is neither of those, it's some other impurity. If you do several cycles of precipitation you should be able to get it white, but its not necessary. Three rounds of precipitations should already be enough to have a pretty pure product that you can accurately dose.
 
arcologist
#4 Posted : 1/5/2015 5:46:20 PM

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In my experience after several passes separating harmine/harmaline:
Harmine FB: brown
Harmine HCl: bright yellow
Harmaline FB: off-white (not as white as DMT)
Harmaline HCl: (don't remember or have a sample)
 
Synkromystic
#5 Posted : 1/5/2015 9:13:45 PM

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endlessness wrote:
White. So is pure harmaline.

At what pH are you precipitating? If you are doing it at pH 8.75, it will rather be that your harmaline will have harmine contamination, more than your harmine will have harmaline contam. Check this out.

I think the browner color is neither of those, it's some other impurity. If you do several cycles of precipitation you should be able to get it white, but its not necessary. Three rounds of precipitations should already be enough to have a pretty pure product that you can accurately dose.


This is very strange to me. Could there be another alkaloid that precipitates at very low ph with the harmine? i usually do only one manske, but 3 a/b precipations before I separate. The brown crystals seem homogeneous...whatever it is is not sediment in my opinion, but seems to be part of the crystal structure.

I dont have an acurate ph meter, but take the basing with sodium carb very very slow, and do multiple filterings before i have fully based the solution so that I can separate the different ratios of harmine.


Can it be that it's time to update the wiki?
 
endlessness
#6 Posted : 1/5/2015 10:44:02 PM

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It has happened with me before, crystals persistently having a tan color. I'm pretty sure its not some other alkaloid, I think it's some minor inactive impurity. If you do a TLC I bet you'd see that its mostly harmine, that's what I saw when I tested it.

If I were you I'd alternate between manske and base precip a few times, and be sure to very thoroughly filter through tightly packed cotton filter in a funnel when it's dissolved in acidic solution. That should def clean it up some more.

Good point by arcologist, harmine HCl seems to be yellowish IME, I've never gotten it white, but def had white freebase before.
 
Synkromystic
#7 Posted : 1/5/2015 11:12:34 PM

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Thanks for the tips endlessness. I will try the cotton ball filter method. I've always just used a coffee filter. Maybe that's my problem.

The brown definitely persists. I just did a base precip of some tan colored harmine hcl. This harmine was mansked twice. I was keeping that harmine hcl for pharma, but have decided to try to clean it up again. It is interesting because i started with dark brown harmine (1 manske and multiple acid/bases) and this harmine turned to a tan colored crystal hcl. They are very small crystals because of the way I mansked (hot and very high concentration of salt to precipitate quickly) but they have a beautiful sparkle and shine. So I just dissolved the tan harmine hcl in water. It all dissolved to a nearly black liquid solution. And i just based it with sodium bicarbonate and I get the same brown harmine hcl with a translucent yellowish tan colored liquid left .

So there must be a near microscopic impurity that precipitates first with the harmine somehow, but not later with the harmaline. I can consistently get near white harmaline in my separations.

I've always had yellow harmala hcl in the past until my latest attempt at pure harmine hcl which was a light tan crystal.....I've attributed the color yellow to harmaline.

I'm a purist these days and I really want my harmine and thh pure!
 
Synkromystic
#8 Posted : 1/6/2015 2:10:58 AM

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So I just tried the cotton ball method. The color still persists. My acidic harmine solution is translucent brown when in small amounts and looks black when all together in a large jar, so it really doesn't look like the impurity is sediment.

I usually make my solutions very saturated. I wonder if this is affecting the purity? It seems to me that when I base the harmine, something is precipitating with the harmine...that is...it looks like the impurity is soluble in acidic water, but not a basic solution. That's why I was asking about other alkaloids. Are there substances that are not alkloids that will dissolve in acid water and precipitate in basic solution? And if so, how might one separate them from alkaloids.

 
Synkromystic
#9 Posted : 1/6/2015 10:41:54 PM

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So about 6 manske filterings later, I got a very very pure product. Slightly off white while wet, but white when dry. I then proceeded to manske it one more time to recover harmine hcl. I did it so that the crystals would grow large. Had some beautiful large translucent tan golden crystals form. it's not the yellow golden that the harmaline/harmine hcl crystals are, or the yellow that harmaline hcl is.

Acetic acid harmine solution is tan - dark brown or black depending on the saturation, but white when precipitated out of the solution.

 
tregar
#10 Posted : 4/12/2015 2:23:54 PM

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Congrats Synkromystic on the very pure off white product after 6 manske!

I get a very light brown tannish colored FB after 3 mankse which suits me fine. When you hold the harmine under a bright lamp, pure glistening xtals can be seen shimmering back at you here and there. I've gone beyond this purity before, but found it un-necessary, wasting many extra hours of effort when the lower purity worked just great. I've used light brown harmine now for many, many years, and found it most excellent. It is a light brownish color, not quite tan but just a very light brown tan. Harmine is dark brown to light brown tan, Harmaline is a sandy looking almost pure white powder, while thh has a pure white powder appearance. These that fall out at higher ph have a lighter, whiter appearance than the lower ph falling out harmine.

150mg of this very light brown tannish FB harmine is minimum I need for a 2 hour experience, 165mg is even better, 200mg is perfect, 225mg is fine as well. 250mg is when dizziness and nausea kicks in for me. 200 to 225mg of harmine really increases the spiritual feelings and profoundness. My ideal experience is 200mg of harmine with 200mg or more of thh at same time, there is no nausea for me at this dose. Very controllable experience, very euphoric. Without the thh, I get no euphoria, and the visuals are meaningless geometrics that never progress into real visions. Thh shuts down serotonin signals as it is a 5-ht1 agonist, allowing one access to higher spiritual realms and teachings, beyond this serotonin encapsulated world. It allows access to "the other world" just like other plant entheogens (cacti & hoffman's miracle are also strong 5-ht1a agonist). With thh, it's like looking down thru 15 meters of shimmering diamond sparkling pure non-tainted crystal clear ocean water, with a clear diamond sparkling view of all the visions, brightly lit like rare gems and diamonds. Opening your eyes and peering across your room, all is brightly lit as if newly created, as if all things are lit by an inner light. Things sparkle and glisten with inner life. After-images are long-lasting and persistent & the inter-relatedness of all things can be seen. Colors are magnified, bold and brand-new & music sounds extremely beautiful.

Also, with harmine & thh, there are 2 hours of clear colored visions like those described by Benny Shannon in the book "Antipodes of the mind." With this combination alone even without an admixture I've seen monochrome blue-colored visions of a chalkboard full of scientific discoveries & mathematical equations, art exhibits of cultures on display, tee-kees on distant islands, a woman in mideval times searching for a lost piece of personal jewelry that meant alot to her, a horse carousel in a circus that melted from top to bottom then re-built itself, remarkable clear visions for 2 hours, remarkable insights for the rest of the day, perhaps for 16 hours total, no stress, no depression, good sense of well-being. Of course these long-lasting visions with no admixture can only be seen when having not taken the above together for at least 2 weeks, when tolerance is quite low. When tolerance is high, not as many visions, and not for as long. It is important to take at least a 2 week break for the best experience imho. Use the time in-between the 2 week period you don't use anything to eat healthy, build your body up by lifting weights, walk or jog to keep your heart healthy. We all have a physical, emotional, and spiritual side. Feed all of them at intervals to stay in balance is my motto.

Taking a Hawaiian leaf admixture with the above of even the tiniest brewed amount increases the color and brightness of all the visions. In my opinion, the Ayahuasca (harmine & thh) contains the visions and visuals, the psychotria is just there to brighten them all up and make them stand out in all various colors, without the admixture, the visions are harder to see, but they are still there, just in monochrome and much lighter. The psychotria also seems to increase the animation factor of the visuals.

From Article 2 linked to below by Gale Highpine entitled "Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca" with which I agree in my own experiences. See specifically the sections entitled "The vine and the leaf" & "listening to the vine".
Quote:

From section "the vine and the leaf":

The leaves were Ayahuasca’s “helpers,” I was told, and their purpose was to “brighten and clarify” the visions. The vine is like a cave, and the leaf is like a torch you use to see what is inside the cave. The vine is like a book, and the leaf is like the candle you use to read the book.8 The vine is like a snowy television set, and the leaf helps to tune in the picture. There was a subtle attitude that the need for strong leaf was the sign of a beginner: An experienced ayahuasquero could see the visions even in low light.

Ayahuasca vine is not visionary in the same way as DMT. Visions from vine-only brews are shadowy, monochromatic, like silhouettes, or curling smoke, or clouds moving across the night sky. It is because their visions are usually monochromatic that vines are classified by the color of vision they produce: white, black, blue, red (in my experience, dark maroon). Snakes, the most common vision on Ayahuasca, are considered the manifest spirit of the vine.9 Vine visions can be hard to see; in fact, the “visions” may not be visual at all, but auditory or somatic or intuitive. But the vine carries the content of the message, the teaching, and the insight. The leaf helps illuminate the content, but the teachings are credited to the vine. Vine visions are “frequently associated with writing, to a code that is present in visions…or in the ‘books’ where the spirits keep the secrets of the forest.” (Calavia Saez 2011:135). The vine is The Teacher, The Healer, The Guide. The purpose of drinking Ayahuasca is to receive the message the vine imparts. This is why it is the vine, not the leaf, that is classified by the type of vision it gives. “For them the vine is, in truth, a living guide, a friend, a paternal authority” (Weiskopf 2005:104).

Great study which lists typical amounts of harmala alkaloids in brews, found it very helpful (see page 2):

hxxp://catbull.com/alamut/Bibliothek/various%20alkaloid%20profiles%20in%20aya%20decoction.pdf
http://catbull.com/alamu...in%20aya%20decoction.pdf

Why the vine is the most important part of real Ayahuasca, vine & leaf broken down:
hxxp://www.ayahuasca.com/ayahuasca-overviews/unraveling-the-mystery-of-the-origin-of-ayahuasca/
http://www.ayahuasca.com...the-origin-of-ayahuasca/

The Therapeutic use of Ayahuasca:
hxxps://books.google.com/books?id=h0_ABAAAQBAJ&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=ayahuasca+withdrawal+maoi&source=bl&ots=UNtHYpZ8CZ&sig=h2-6WU6IDR2pd5qzgyGasyuEYPs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NcgJVYe-E8TYggSJv4SQBA&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=ayahuasca%20withdrawal%20maoi&f=false
https://books.google.com...rawal%20maoi&f=false

The Internationalization of Ayahuasca:
hxxps://books.google.com/books?id=49i8-CzmY_oC&printsec=frontcover&dq=beatriz+the+internationalization+of+ayahuasca&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EJMqVaWlA4m_ggSploKYAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=beatriz%20the%20internationalization%20of%20ayahuasca&f=false
https://books.google.com...%20ayahuasca&f=false

DMT is not a 5-HT1a agonist, it hits all the other receptors real hard though. This is why DMT requires a 5-HT1a agonist like caapi which has THH in it...this way it will then act similar to all the other natural oral entheogens like cactus and Hofman's miracle (which also are very strong 5-ht1a agonist), causing meaningful spiritual, other worldly, akashic record, all manner of meaningful visuals and visions, even the geometrics make since on caapi + dmt, as they progress into repeating rows of flowers, animals, historical scenes, scenes from the future, all manner of great knowledge and spiritual insights to eternity.

5-HT1a receptors make up over 80% of brain receptors according to Dr. Nichols, they must be targetted to shut down serotonin signals in the brain, so that increased and expanded awareness is then made possible, only the combination of DMT with caapi which contains nearly as much thh as it does harmine will this then be made possible. Rue + DMT just does not do this, it is more like shrooms whereas caapi + dmt is very like cactus or hoffman's miracle, a true 6 to 8 hour experience of immense beauty, introspection & spirituality. DMT was meant to be used orally with a 5-ht1a agonist, this is why "smoked DMT" will never equal the same experience as Ayahuasca, it must shut down 80% of the brain's serotonin signals to be transported to "the other world" of eternal spiritual teachings & visions, this can only be done by using caapi which often has much THH as it does harmine, sometimes very much more depending upon the method of brewing the caapi, usually long boils in acidic solution for long periods turn a brew into one with 50% to sometimes as much as 70% thh.

The study above in link #1 from catbull on pages 2 and 3 display this unusually high ratio of Thh to harmine in the decoctions from the Santo Daime, UDV, native Shuar Indians, etc. The chart illustrates over 25 brews analyzed for harmine, THH & harmaline content. My personal opinion is that much of the harmaline is being converted into THH so that none remains, the Shamans of the Santo Daime & Shuar Indians appear to be some of the best of this method of brewing, as the analysis of many of their brews show more THH than harmine, with zero amounts of harmaline, apparently they have learned over time how to construct brews this way with long periods of boiling in acidic water.
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oversoul1919
#11 Posted : 4/12/2015 3:11:53 PM

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