A friend has just sent me a whole bunch of very rare Acacia Seeds. Message me if you are someone who can grow them and have a place for them to grow.

there is an iffy grey area between dmt being sold as a commodity and large amounts of dmt being extracted and shared for the intended greater good of mankind and nature. there are certainly people out there who extract quite large amounts of dmt with the intent of sharing medicine and helping others... but as soon as money comes into the equation there is much less discrimination as to the type of market and greater risk of the individual becoming motivated by profit.

i think it should be pointed out that nen was referring not to changa extracts specifically but more so to the 'changa culture'... its prevelance in festival culture for example i'm sure you are aware of (it is a dancefloor delight for many)... but these kinds of settings can inadvertently detract from the process behind its production ..and they can also prompt a more indulgent way of using extracts, which I think starts to tie into the profiteering dimension

I am with you on the notion that most people don't take dmt lightly. but believe me some do big time and they are a legitimate market for dmt/changa vendours..

.. I think you misunderstand what he is saying. I shouldn't speak for nen but i'm sure he doesn't feel that only the spiritually aware are entitled to work with dmt. I think it is more the process of the ignorant inadvertantly supporting large scale environmental harm that is the concern here.. people who use dmt in party settings are often ignorant as to what occurs "behind the scenes" and should steer clear of commercial dmt the same way we should all steer clear of things like inhumanely produced meat or other products emerging from cruelty or destruction

this is a good sentiment and if dmt were only spread in this fashion I doubt we'd be dealing with these sorts of issues. I wouldn't consider anyone who does unnecessary and uneducated damage to life a 'wise' person... and unfortunately the wise are not the only people who can read teks and identify trees

Over the years I've known quite a few people who extract, and sell, I don't know any of them who have any exceptional demand either. Certainly not enough for greed to really become a factor, more often than not, such people do not give up their day job!

It could also be that I'm out of touch, but I recently talked to an Israeli guy about Changa in Israel and he said it was one or two people bringing it in from South America. I talk to people about the Israeli scene, and there doesn't seem to be THAT much there.

I know different people in different parts of the world, Changa certainly aint running off the shelf. It has just never really been like that. People will buy a bit at festivals when they can get it, but it just isn't in the same league as other compounds or psychedelics, such as LSD.

I know you can smell changa on the dancefloor at parties globally, of course a little bit will go a long way into peoples nostrils, but that doesn't mean that this is where most of it is being smoked. It isn't. Most people are smoking it in their bedroom or in nature or in ceremonial groups. Smoking changa on the dancefloor is hectic, you really have to be very experienced to be able to do this. And that people do this, does not mean their attitude is cavalier or blatent, they may well be the most conscious and aware people on the dancefloor. Unless you talk to such people (which I make a point of doing) you'll never know what is happening for them. Like I said, people who smoke changa are about the most conscious people you'll find at festivals to my mind. And just because it may be recreational for them, does not they are unconscious idiots, even the Amazonian tribal people will take 5meo snuffs recreationally at times!

Also, I'm sure demand is increasing. And so we need to be smart and proactive about what can actually be done about that. I've been putting the message out there we need to grow these trees for 13 years or so, I think only now people are *really* getting it and putting the necessary effort in.

My view is that we humans need these tryptamines in order to get our shit together, and that can occur when we encourage and promote right use, which is one of my focuses. For their not to be wild harvesting, there needs to be options and alternatives for people. There needs to be people growing huge amounts of active species, and options such as phalaris needs to be spelt out clearly so that more people can become truly self sufficient. Perhaps what we need is a sexy new tek which explains how to grow and effectively extract from phalaris?

I try to do my bit by proactive distributing seeds of active species far and wide of the right species so people can grow these trees and become more self sufficient.

chocobeastie wrote:

..no..i don't know where you get this perception..
after all, this is a very public forum, that anyone can read..
the attitude here is to empower any individual into their own relationship with the sources of DMT..i.e. the plants..cut out middle-men and would be manipulators (power hungry) ..
the would-be elitists are, to me, the salespeople and evangelists who do not empower people with the information..so that they can control and manipulate their 'market'..
it is not difficult to extract one's own dmt for personal use, sustainably..nor is it difficult to grow plants..this is what middle-men don't want the public to know..

..there is no justification for the selling of wild extracted DMT..it has not been grown, it costs very little to produce..

the biggest danger, i think, other than greed, is DMT 'evangelism' at the expense of the environment..it's all very well to talk about 'waking people up', but if that involves destroying sections of the environment, then this is truly unconscious..like jihadists who murder in the name of god..

..there has been a lot of changa floating around..and i don't see masses of people 'waking up' simply by smoking it..it is a spiritual approach that allows people to wake up..not simply taking an entheogen..



..there is a greed factor in simply thinking that one has a god given right to go out and cut down or strip hundreds of trees to 'bring the word' to people..
greed doesn't just involve money..it involves lust for power..

add this 'quite a few people' up...that's quite a few damaged environments..
and people can also become damaged (without even realising) by being given entheogens in potentially inappropriate environments..
..i don't want to go into the specifics of markets (though my intelligence is good) , but whatever people you're in touch with..well - the evidence is in the bush..like acacian's last report..
a market has been encouraged which destroying the hand that feeds it..
it is good, chocobeastie, that you have encouraged the growing of plants..we need to also encourage the growing of conscious action..

..the Acacia is Not DMT..or 'ayahuasca'...that is the whole point of this thread, along with encouraging sustainable and caring approaches..
for it to be thrown in to memes about changa, molecules etc deeply disrespects it, in my opinion..
..i say all this to be helpful, out of compassion..

but there are good and wise reasons why the ancient mysteries were not simply laid out in the markets..and if one becomes reliant on entheogens for 'vision' then one is incomplete..
how many times do people need to smoke changa (or take ayahuasca) to 'wake up'..?
there is a tendency in some towards 'entheogenic porn addiction'..where does it lead?

..this essence you seek..treasure it..

..the acacia warrior fights for the tree..
and peace is in the warrior's camp..
.

@

"i think it should be pointed out that nen was referring not to changa extracts specifically but more so to the 'changa culture'... its prevelance in festival culture for example i'm sure you are aware of (it is a dancefloor delight for many)... but these kinds of settings can inadvertently detract from the process behind its production ..and they can also prompt a more indulgent way of using extracts, which I think starts to tie into the profiteering dimension"


Dancing in the woods, at the right festival, while smoking changa has resulted in some of the most profound mystical experiences I have had. I am not ashamed to admit that, and it's an experience I look forward to during the summer. I don't get to be in a place where I am free enough to do that very often, so when I find myself out in the BC rainforest, with my favorite DJ playing..you can bet the person wandering off to the back floating through the trees exhaling indole is probably me

When I have encountered it at festivals in other contexts, it has been, alarmingly via people who don't even seem to really work with DMT at all...which is sad. It's a business for them and as long as acacia is the next mimosa they don't care what happens.

So you are talking about hundreds of trees, I agree with you, I think we are talking about hundreds of trees, not by one person, but by lots of different people for lots of different reasons. Most of these people are pretty conscious, and try and do right by the trees by harvesting from fallen down trees or trees just about to fall over. Obviously there are going to be total dickheads out there who have no idea at all just trying to make cash.

Say if there are 300 trees which have been harvested, and there is 30 kilos of bark from each tree, that is 9000 kilos of bark.

If there is 0.3% alkaloids in there, a pretty low amount, presumably mostly DMT, that is 30 kilos of DMT.

That is shitloads, I have only ever heard of one guy selling a kilo of DMT. I actually haven't heard anything about this person being busted for a kilo of DMT though.

I wouldn't presume the global yearly market for Australian DMT was bigger than 30K, its probably more like 10k or something like that.

Say if the same person was extracting from Acuminata, and they were getting 1.5% and they harvested 100 trees, that would be 45 kilos of DMT.

I am aware that people on the far north coast of NSW were concerned about limited stands of Obtusifolias, and now about Special Tree.

But see it this way, anyone doing very large scale extracting would have to be very foolish not to use Acacia Acuminata to my mind. And yes I know we are dealing with foolish people...

I think the cat is out of the bag. I can't see there is any point fomenting angst about this. Perhaps it is the element of powerlessness about all this that creates so much anger about this in people.

I'm personally more concerned about massive deforrestation in so many other countries apart from Australia. A few hundred acacia trees is a drop in the ocean to the widespread global destruction of the eco-system that you may or not be directly aware of if you live in Australia!

Popularity of DMT is only going to increase, so lets just grow the trees and encourage people to grow them. I honestly feel that these recent events have caused people to realise how important it is to grow significant amounts of these trees, and that is perhaps the bright side of it.



That is the more Aldous Huxley approach I was talking of...



Agreed. I got into this in 1999 and thought the entheogenic scene was immmature and I still think those criticisms can apply, wherebay many people are not particapting in an integrative framework of truly human transformation and authentic healing and awakening.



I personally think Changa is pretty good stuff, and that it helps people in subtle and not so subtle ways. Although I am aware there are some people who are not respectful of its nature, but I do think it has helped many people to wake up. It is really just the plants.

..respectfully, chocobeastie, i think we are drifting from the point here..but it would add up to thousands of trees by now..

whether changa is 'good stuff' or not is not the point..

if there's really a point, it's about respecting nature..the mother

the essential issues were that:

1) there are multiple reports now of serious harm being caused to acacias in national parks and sensitive environments

2) that a kilo of wild acacia ripped dmt aimed at the changa market was out there..this raises analysis of how conscious some people are

..now, being an Acacia thread, from the point of view of the plants and those who love them, and the natural environment in general, this is not good..


..well, yes how much more 'out of the bag' can you be than a thread like this?
but what is this powerlessness you talk about? anger? we've moved beyond that in this acacian discussion..though i think it valid that people honestly share their emotional responses to such actions..

..this is about raising environmental and ethical awareness..there is plenty of power to those with heart..
right now, this is doing something positive for acacia trees..

smaller scale than mass deforestation, yes, but serious nonetheless..particularly for a couple of species..

..if people want to buy changa, etc, they have a right to know about the potential ethics of what they are buying..
and can gain knowledge of how to move beyond this commodity model, which has not served the planet well..like deforestation..


..is it? ..is it even advocating a particular approach?

..it is one thing for a person to promote the use of entheogens as a therapeutic or even spiritual tool..
but it is another thing for a person to walk around at a party and say, 'hey have you heard of this? do you want to buy some..'

..that's closer to the essence of my point there..

and trees beloved to people are hurt in the process..for what cost? ..where is the line?

but i wouldn't right off ancient wisdom..given where the lack of respect for the mother has lead human kind..
.

PS..to DreaMTripper..great pioneering work on Acacia verticillata..! congratulations..

strength and protection through Diversity was, of course, another major theme of the thread..

it's naturalised in Israel

Prickly Moses

..seen growing below at Cambridge England University botanical gardens..

be well acacians all...

..of course there is nothing wrong with enjoying changa on a dancefloor or even at a festival.. i do so myself at times and I've had some incredible dmt experiences at aussie "doof" parties. that was not the point i was really trying to make at all. I was making the point that there is a market out there for that kind of recreational use and people who blindly buy the dmt in these sorts of settings often aren't aware of the damage that they are supporting by giving those people their money. I have nothing against changa itself and I see it as a very powerful healing agent... my issue is with people hurting the environment not with the people who smoke tryptamines

I'm also not calling them unconscious idiots and I'm certainly not condemning dmt use in festival settings. I laid that out pretty clearly in my post. its the buying part I don't agree with - not the smoking changa in (insert setting) part.. I'm not in any doubt that very intelligent, loving and switched on people enjoy tryptamines in the festival setting..the word ignorant was used above by definition not as an insulting label. yes, the right festival can certainly have the feeling of a kind of group/tribe initiation in my experience and should not be denoted as a possible outlet for visionary experiences- but intentions at festivals are mixed and groups of lads buying quarters of dmt regularly so that they can smoke cones standing around their commodore and go into marioland is both a token of disrespect in my eyes and also quite contrary to initiation into the mystical

and chocobeastie, I don't mean to put acacia destruction on a pedestal in any way ... yes there is deforestation on a much grander scale going on and its a sure concern for all of us. this is however a forum about tryptamines and it is a relevant topic of discussion on a thread about the trees that bear them. it seems that the general headset that is required for ruthless deforestation is somewhat present in the tryptamine scene just on a less corporate scale

Well, I have met one guy who does exactly that, and he spends a lot of time, informing and talking to the people he sells it to, even handing out cards with a link to a one hour audio briefing on how to consciously utilise the experience in the most conscious and aware manner.

Not everyone is at the level of understanding entheogens as therapeutic or spiritual tools, but people can be educated as to that use.



I know places where obtusifolias grow as far as the eye can see, and a lot of them fall over there, and that is where a lot of harvesters are going to get trees. Not all harvesters are cutting trees, and even if they do cut down trees, they generally are the one's which are rotted or are about to fall over. Anyone who has been out to see big stands of Acacia trees knows that there are going to be a big amount of trees that have just fallen over from storms, shifting soil and rot.

Anyway, I go into all of this in my book, I'm going to send you a copy of my book early next week Nen and a whole bunch of seeds

"..of course there is nothing wrong with enjoying changa on a dancefloor or even at a festival.. i do so myself at times and I've had some incredible dmt experiences at aussie "doof" parties. that was not the point i was really trying to make at all. I was making the point that there is a market out there for that kind of recreational use and people who blindly buy the dmt in these sorts of settings often aren't aware of the damage that they are supporting by giving those people their money. I have nothing against changa itself and I see it as a very powerful healing agent... my issue is with people hurting the environment not with the people who smoke tryptamines"

Yeah I got that acacian..I was just elaborating my own stance about dancing. I have actually basically lost a once close friend over this issue in part..because I want absolutely no part in using sacred trees like mimosa for my own financial gain. It boggles my mind why some people cannot at least understand my view on the subject...and this is one reason why I am a big advocate for psilocybin(aside from the fact that I think it stands on it's own beside DMT well enough anyway)...psilocybin mushrooms at least occupy a special niche where sustainability will never become an issue..I don't see whats so great about ayahuasca vs mushrooms anyway, esp when I live in an area that might as well have been the site of a psilocybe spore bomb..we have some of the most potent psilocybes on earth in our back yards here, and everyone still wants to just talk about ayahuasca..and I have offered to teach people to extract before, and had them turn me down as they would rather just get it elsewhere...they don't even care to bother earning it.

It's also why I continue to talk about grasses...and work with them. Many people don't understand why, and this it's a dead end..but it's better than people consuming all the acacia confusa(or aus acacias) until there is none left. Synthetic DMT would be far better an option than hordes of people just hacking up every tree in sight.

..thank you for your comments acacian and jamie..appreciated input...
and thank you chocobeastie ..books and seeds are great


chocobeastie wrote:

..perhaps in your circles, but this "fallen over trees" story - they all say that ! lol


..i can't say i've ever, in 23 years, seen, in the wild, a standing tree i could confirm was 'about to fall over.'..
how exactly does one know this..?
are we talking 'special powers'? or wishful thinking..
obtusifolia, can, live to well over 100 years..and fallen over usually continues to grow..

(also, in terms of protected natural environments, it is important to leave dead trees which are habitat, nutrient, and of microbial importance)

..what i'm attacking, chocobeastie, is what has already been evidenced..the harm to plants in national parks, and other sensitive areas, which is where the majority of certain species are..

there are common things, and there are not so common things..
and there may not be much of a 'weed' problem in hawaii with a. confusa if demand increases..

if the objective is to share DMT, then one of the large scale solutions is, as jamie says, Phalaris..
easily growable on mass fast..with known desirable strains..


jamie wrote:


..i salute this statement,
and point out of it the key word here - Sacred
and what does this mean?
and how do we treat the sacred?

this doesn't come down to arguments for the use of entheogens..and what may or may not be the best path..

it's the concept that the acacia is, yes, sacred..the forest and the natural environment too..

like, would you sell your mother..?

it's about respect (and the future)
.


be well acacians all..
.

this may be true but there's still plenty touching the living.. we already know that a lot of people harvest respectfully - they're not really the people being discussed here whether we agree with them selling or not.

and whether or not they grow in abundance they should still be treated with respect.. they're still living beings which have a right to life just as we do. there's good info available now on obtusifolias twig content.. I don't think there's really any excuse to peel harmful amounts of trunk bark off of a tree that is in good health, whether the intention is to enlighten mankind into a new age or for personal growth. it seems selfish to inhibit one beings growth to excel ones own

well said acacian !

peace unto you

You know there was a time not too long ago, when the fireplace was something more than symbolic..before electricity and gas heaters and stoves..before microwaves and light bulbs..when fire meant life..it meant you were not going to freeze to death in winter, and your meat could dry out so as to not rot, and you could boil the roots you collected in autumn to nourish your body with carbohydrates.

I once spent a summer living in the woods on the west coast of vancouver island, on a surf trip. It doesn't matter what time of year it is, when the coastal fogs roll into the PNW rainforests early in the morning or late in the evening it gets damn cold..and we learned to welcome that fire like it was the last sun in a dying universe. It was all we had, and we would gather around that thing at night like the hearthfire it was and tell stories, share food, or just sit in silence trying to warm our bodies after floating around in the freezing cold pacific ocean all day on surfboards.

What remains of those times is almost like a nostalgic memory..fire holds this symbolic place in our hearts, and so we have TV channels with recordings of old wood burning yuletide hearths, or we install fancy gas fireplaces as novelty items to sooth that space within us that remembers..

A gas fireplace in a modern gas heated home however, is not the same as the hearth which once was the lifeblood of a home.

DMT is kinda like that for me.

The stuff really is everywhere, and once upon a time you had to actually go out in the world and get it. Now, people can simply have root bark shipped to your door without even leaving your lazyboy..yes yes..I know..I have benefited from this as much as any of you have, and I have no regrets..but something IS lost.

It's the same twinkle I see sparkling in the eyes of elders like Paul Kroeger, who knows the wild psilocybes of the PNW like noones business...I think that time spent out in the wilds of the world changes a person, and should at least bring one to a deeper understanding of the term "reciprocity".

I don't know how many people have actually spent time out amongst the plants in this way...it's hard to explain to someone how the process shifts you beyond just the pharmakodynamics of tryptamine ingestion..anyone who has spent enough time out in the wilder places to harvest kilos of dry phalaris, and extract that stuff will attest, that it is work. It's time consuming, requires serious patience and (at least I) loves every second of it...because it changes you...to spend hours in overgrown swamp lands with harmonies of frogs singing fractal overtones dripping back down into the forest like cosmic nectar, the birds, insects...it changes you..

..and then you smoke this stuff..It's not just DMT(literally ) ...it's alchemy.

It seems there is a safeguard to some degree...with acacias, with grasses...you can get extremly high yielding acacias, but they are slow to regenerate being trees..you cant have every other person running off into the woods to rip off every phyllode and ringbark every tree..because nothing will be left...and then you get grasses, that are so abundant you can easily fill dump trucks with the stuff without causing so much as an ecological dent in many regions, yet the content is often very low and can when wild have extremely mixed alkaloid profiles which make extractions more challenging, that again only a certain kind of breed is going to really put in any effort to go down that road.

..and I wouldn't have it any other way, because the richness such a context has provided me in my life is priceless. It's become so much more than just a status of symbol in the underground psychedelic culture for one to scratch off the list.

How do you even begin to speak words about that?

beautiful post jamie I resonated with what you wrote a lot .. I think that the process of connecting with nature and specifically the plants that gift us these compounds provides a much deeper context to the tryptamine experience..



..the feeling you mention here is a familiar one for me too and is the key reason I take so much more from connecting directly with the plants in the wild. the overall sensory pleasure/stimulation of the surroundings is very moving. I think that this element of the process encompasses a deeply mystical dimension of life ..I would say perhaps equal to that of the experience after the hard work to follow. the awe inspiring beauty of these life forms inspires some my deepest moments of ponder .. is very healing..and i can only imagine how much depth this adds to my relationship with the tryptamine experience overall… and in context to the above conversation how much people must miss out when they have these things brought to their doorstep after a few clicks of the mouse

I think the general headset of having something brought to your feet - or a service that cuts you out of the process to create ease - is the very thing that has sparked the era of big business and exploitation of life on such grand scales. it probably lies at the root of many of the worlds great problems.



this is why i admire the work you are doing so much Jamie.. something that is so often fruitless turns many people away from persisting with grasses and you are one of the only people I have heard of who is so persistent with it...as you say patience is required.. and is in turn rewarded with something deeper. it is the same thing with acacias over here to some degree... many extractions turn out with nothing.. and it can be easy to become disheartened..but the experience of connecting with nature and the work to follow processing the material is something to appreciate in itself ..and a key motivator to keep at it too

My thoughts exactly, the 'pile it high, sell it cheap (or not so) deliver it quick, dont question it' mentality, with little consideration for the impact it has on the environment or another living being. The wanton destruction of acacias in the wild, deforestation and other destructive practices are in my opinion a symptom of humanities disconnect with nature.

something i'm hoping to document in more detail over the coming months is the peculiar hybridisation between a few species of section juliflorae down here in victoria - there's certainly a very common intermediate down here who's taxonomic features seem to lie somewhere between Mucronata, Floribunda, Oxycedrus and possibly longifolia.. for now I'd like to focus on the curious commonalities between the above species and which taxonomy seems to be passed on in many cases.

something I've noticed which remains much the same with floribunda regardless of other taxonomic variation is its flowering habit and it is thus easily identifiable as a member of a hybrid from that aspect alone during winter/spring.. the thing that really seems to vary is the growth habit of its foliage - in particular the way the phyllodes are arranged on the stems, as well as the texture, length, width and shape of its phyllodes.
I've observed a lot of trees now which obviously have floribunda genes (as can be easily identified by its abundant floral habit) but have phyllodes which don't fit its documented taxonomy at all. stiff, sharp (often to the extent of being slightly painful when pressed against the finger) and often quite erect phyllodes are a common variation to come by.. often much broader than the fairly narrow phyllodes of the common and well documented variety but a number of sources seem to cite floribunda as having variable phyllode width so this could be predominantly due to environmental factors.

whether the broader phyllode width is a trait inherited from mucronata or longifolia - or whether it is due to an environmental factor, I am not entirely sure - if hybridisation is a factor, I tend to lean towards mucronata in most cases as they are much more in abundance... although I've also observed some specimens in which longifolia were also close by. I suspect there is probably a bit of breeding between the three of them.
I understand the appressed hairs are not just a feature of floribunda but also some varieties of mucronata too... and the presence of a basal gland on mucronata seems a grey area. it is certainly present on most specimens of subs. longifolia.. but it seems variably present on the subs. mucronata

I suspect the commonly sharp point of phyllodes observed is a quality inherited from either A. mucronata subs. mucronata or A. oxycedrus (which is known to hybridise with floribunda but there is little to no pictorial documentation available that I can find). Both various forms of mucronata and oxycedrus are common to my area so which of these is the most prevalent in the hybridisation I am unsure.. I'd also like to add that mucronata is incredibly variable in its taxonomy, so features such as broader phyllode width (of which I suggested longifolia as a candidate for) could be equally likely an inheritence of a broad phyllode varitiety of A. mucronata.. I know I've seen stands of a. mucronata subs. longifolia for example which vary hugely both within themselves and from other stands within walking distance... the hybridisation thing is certainly a tricky thing to pinpoint.. another factor not to be discounted is the conditions the tree grows in.. eg. exposure to light, soil ph, temperature..I'd love to see more research done.. in any case i think there is good potential tryptamine content in some of these strains and no doubt some unique extracts (confirmed with a couple trees but generally a hunch)

i'm also wondering if anyone can help with advice on how long to wait after rainfall for harvest? it rains a lot where i live now..

Hi Acacian
I lost your number. Remember the road trip with the white 4wd. I just remembered your name here to find you. As i am new member i cant message u direct. I am sorry to the rest of the forum for this type of open chat request. It wont happen again
Thanks in advance.

Great data addition Sharps

The bright yellow DMT can be due to the temperatures used during extraction. Prolonged heat baths can contribute to deeper yellow xtals ime.
I'm not too surprised you didn't find many oils in the bark. I suspect a phyllode extraction from the same tree may need the defat (or a mini AB, which I prefer now).

The difference in the content from A.Confusa might be due to the other akaloids (such as nmt), as opposed to plant fats/oils. I've had some mixed results from confusa in terms of dmt/nmt ratios, though Cyb's maxion with the mini AB twist that Earthwalker has described gives more consistent DMT purity.

Nen, I've heard you mention the rain dropping alkaloid content a few times. Have you elaborated on this in much detail before?