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What's the point of citric acid in the FASA tek? (May be the simplest tek ever) Options
 
mromgwtf
#1 Posted : 3/3/2015 4:51:52 PM
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What's the point of citric acid in the FASA tek? Can't we just dissolve the plant in acetone, after 2 days or so filter the acetone out, and directly add FASA to it? I seriously don't understand the point of citric acid in that tek. If SWIM had some MHRB he'd do this:
1. Dissolve MHRB in pure acetone.
2. Wait 2 days.
3. Now your acetone should have most of the alkaloids dissolved in it, including DMT.
4. Pour the acetone to a different container, you may use a filter.
5. Add FASA to it.
6. You should see DMT fumarate forming at the bottom.
 

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The Day Tripper
#2 Posted : 3/3/2015 5:39:20 PM

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The point of fasa is to precipitate DMT fumarate from acetone containing freebase dmt, in which freebase is abundantly soluble, but not the fumarate, and quite probably other salt forms of dmt. Which is why fasa works in the first place.

Now what you propose is to dissolve a SALT of dmt in acetone, and then add fasa to precipitate a SALT of dmt.

Theres a few problems i can see, not that i may/may not work, you should try and let us know how it works btw.

The first is that we don't know what dmt salts naturally occur in the plants we use to extract (often time different species with different alkaloids, and perhaps different salts).

And as such we cannot determine if they are even soluble in acetone as a salt. Since acetone is used to wash/clean up dmt fumarate (ie it does not dissolve it), i would assume other salts of dmt would be sparingly soluble in acetone as best.

IE natural dmt salts may not even be soluble in acetone, and obviously that means this proposal would not were if that is true.


The second problem i see, is assuming those unknown natural dmt salts are soluble in acetone, will they disassociate from their ion (the acid used to make that dmt molecule a salt), or is the bond between the dmt and that acid stronger than the bond that would form with fumaric acid?

If so, nothing would precipitate, since the dmt is still in solution as the tannate, or whatever numerous natural plant acids it could be forming a salt with.

Like i said, these are just theoretical problems with your proposed idea, and if you test it and it works then i would be glad to be proven wrong, because, well, that's a pretty simple and easy tek you outlined IF it works.

Just my 2c

Very curious to see how it turns out if you do decide to try it though Thumbs up
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mromgwtf
#3 Posted : 3/3/2015 6:33:04 PM
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So the DMT in plants isn't in its freebase form? I didn't know that. So the only thing missing in the tek I wrote above is the basification step. In theory you could just add some base to the acetone... but most of the bases aren't soluble in acetone.

From what I've heard DMT salts are soluble in water but freebase DMT is not. Do you think the DMT salts from MHRB could be dissolved in (warm) water? If that was possible we could just boil MHRB in water, and after some time add Na2CO3 or other base to it. If everything went correctly you should see freebase DMT forming at the bottom, since it's not soluble in water.
 
Orion
#4 Posted : 3/3/2015 8:56:56 PM

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I would suggest reading a few teks on the Nexus. Heated water and then basification is the essence of an A/B, one of the most common methods there is. Would that it was so simple to precipitate freebase from water people wouldn't need all of these nonpolar solvents.
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pitubo
#5 Posted : 3/3/2015 9:22:04 PM

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You should really start with reading a lot of the very good information on the forum and the wiki.

Before you start reinventing or tuning any teks, you may also want to have some basic knowledge of elementary chemistry.
 
dreamer042
#6 Posted : 3/3/2015 9:37:46 PM

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Infundibulum wrote:
NOTE: In step 2 one is making an acetone extraction and at the same time converting the alkaloids their citrate salt. After addition of the fumaric acid-saturated acetone in step 4, there is an interconversion of alkaloid-citrate to alkaloid-fumarate salt, like:

dmt-citrate + fumaric acid <-> dmt-fumarate + citric acid

citric acid has a pKa of 3.13, while fumaric acid's pka is 3.43. Fumaric acid is a weaker acid and thus in the above reaction one should have most of the dmt as a citrate salt and just a tiny amount as a fumarate salt. dmt-fumarate however is totally insoluble in acetone (while dmt-citrate is perfectly soluble), and it precipitates as soon as it forms. The insolubility of dmt-fumarate acts therefore as a "sink" and given time all of the dmt-citrate will eventually convert to dmt-fumarate and precipitate out.


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DreaMTripper
#7 Posted : 3/8/2015 10:14:19 AM

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mromgwtf wrote:
So the DMT in plants isn't in its freebase form? I didn't know that. So the only thing missing in the tek I wrote above is the basification step. In theory you could just add some base to the acetone... but most of the bases aren't soluble in acetone.

From what I've heard DMT salts are soluble in water but freebase DMT is not. Do you think the DMT salts from MHRB could be dissolved in (warm) water? If that was possible we could just boil MHRB in water, and after some time add Na2CO3 or other base to it. If everything went correctly you should see freebase DMT forming at the bottom, since it's not soluble in water.


Too much plant material will prevent precipitation or will just mix with it in the mush.
One of the simplest methods for mimosa if you want to limit the number of steps is simply a drytek (wet the plant material to a mushy consistency and add calcium hydroxide) pull with d-limo then do a FASW and evaporate the water then wash the fumaric acid off with dry acetone. No heat, very safe and can get to dmt fumarate in 12hrs.
 
swam rollbre
#8 Posted : 8/9/2015 6:49:17 AM

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mromgwtf wrote:
What's the point of citric acid in the FASA tek? Can't we just dissolve the plant in acetone, after 2 days or so filter the acetone out, and directly add FASA to it? I seriously don't understand the point of citric acid in that tek.

please link said FASA tek. the one i'm familar with-
https://wiki.dmt-nexus.m...ction-The_FASA_Approach
makes no mention of citric acid.....
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