Hello Nexus! I know I can always find the most definitive and informative responses to any drug-related quandary here.

tl;dr Can pure MDMA be a legit entheogen?

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A friend has some legitimately pure MDMA and would like to give me my first experience. His well-researched dosage estimate for me (and my hypersensitivity to substances considered) would be 0.075g. He enjoys 0.2. When we take anything else, we usually split him/me 70%/30% of whatever we're taking and I almost always trip harder.

I don't know... however... if I actually want to do MDMA. I'm unsure of the real cost/benefit analysis and would love some educated and experienced feedback to help me decide if it's worth doing.

I love DMT. I love Ayahuasca. Love mushrooms. I don't party. I make sure the phone is unplugged when I'm tripping, I close the curtains, I have a warm blanket and a barf bucket nearby. I want a secure and comfortable place to release my soul into an experience *from which I will always learn.* I'll trip with one or two other people, or alone. My drug use is extremely spiritual. It keeps me connected to nature, connected to the people I love, and always sorts my priorities in the context of being a tiny little speck made of blood and guts on a giant rock whirling through space. If a drug isn't going to do this, even if it feels good, it's not for me.

I have never tried cactus. I am intrigued and will one day try cactus.

If the core of an MDMA experience and a cactus experience are both heart-opening, is there any point in bothering with the MDMA? Shorter duration, less body load? I sort of imagine cactus has way more to offer, BUT, I'm also a plant snob.

I also don't have any positive real-life examples of people who swear by pure MDMA and actually have their lives together. I understand this may be a skewed sample. Most people I know who really love it, love to get f'cked up, love to escape from reality, and have no interest in personal growth. They just want to feel good, at any cost. I was at an event this weekend surrounded by a bunch of people who all rolled... and nothing about their behavior during the experience appealed to me. Nothing.

I am well aware of Shulgin and all the positive MDMA studies... I just haven't personally seen this trickle down to any real-life use in my encounters.

I've seen some people get whacked out on mushrooms, and I've also seen many have totally positive experiences. In close quarters, I've only ever seen people have epiphanies, process truths, and grow with DMT and Ayahuasca.

With MDMA, I've only ever seen it used for immediate feel-good gratification. I don't say this in a judgmental way; I'm only saying this is what I observed, and this alone is not enough to interest me.

Especially considering the big whack against my serotonin that is at risk.

Yes, pure substances are much better. Yes, I can supplement magnesium before, B vitamins and 5-HTP after.

I've also gone to hell and back with depression years in the past. I've been stable and flood dosing Caapi only every few months now and am in a really solid place. Would taking MDMA make me feel like garbage afterward? I'm not interested in a hangover. I also just started a new job and I really don't want to rattle or deplete the positive space I'm in.

I always thought of MDMA as something I'd yeah, sure, in the right context, try maybe once, someday. He took me seriously and wants to do it soon. Seeing how everyone behaved the other night put me off, and that's why I started wondering if I should tell him to hold off for when the time is right and we'll eat cactus instead.

Am I being a judgmental stick in the mud? Is there something really awesome out of this world about pure MDMA that is worth the price in serotonin? Will I really learn any lasting lessons, or is it just something that feels good? Maybe my perceptions are tainted because of the context I've seen it used in. I could understand how someone might not understand the pleasantries of a nice glass of wine paired with dinner if they grew up surrounded by alcoholics... I know intentions can be many, abuse is completely different from conscious use, and I'm aware I may have only seen MDMA used in a context that is contrary to my own needs and interests.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I have yet to receive a single vibe from any MDMA user that inspires me to do it. Recent observations of people's behavior (during AND the day after) pushed me from open/neutral toward no.

I never met anyone who chose to change their lives for the better because of an MDMA experience... at least not in person. *hint hint, Nexus! Nexus!* I usually see them continue to engage in moderate to severe self-destructive behavior and it leaves me with a giant question mark in my chest.

In any case, I'd be extremely grateful for anyone's opinions!

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this to me.

Pure MDMA and in the right dose (say 75-120mg) gives no body load or hangover the day after. There is also no evidence that pure mdma causes brain damage when occasionally used (even damage from heavy use is debated). Basically from a single responsible dose there is no "cost" like some would like you to believe. MDMA won't give you personal insights on the same level that true psychedelics will, but it does provide an alternative and very postive way of experiencing the world, your self, and those around you in a different way than using psychedelics will.
Taking it in nature with a group of good friends or at a music festival are the two best ways to experience MDMA, you will have much less great time taking it inside. MDMA is about opening up yourself to the energy and love around you, something you won't experience on the same level being inside as within mother nature.
My first time taking MDMA is definitely up there with tripping for the first time, getting high on cannabis for the first time, and smoking dmt for the first time. I highly recommend it!
Just make sure you test it if you haven't already, especially if it is not in crystal form.

Personally i've only ever had very minor psychedellic effects from mdma.
Hangover has only happened with larger doses (500+mg).

It has a nice physical stimulation if your into it & a nice softening of the heart, as well as a very nice euphoria & the potential for bonding & openness with those close to you is nice.

I've never been into the whole club thing which seems to be where it's use has become dominant, but i've always had a good time at home with a small, tight knit group.

It does not have the potential for learning & mind expansion entheogens do ime, while there is some there, it deffinately still does resemble other amphetamines only less tense & edgy & more loved up & comfortable.

I'd say give it a try once or twice, but enviornment & the people your with can make or break your opinion on it.
If you do decide to try it, take a day when you have a day or two off work, maybe try it alone or with one other person who's close & does not put off that ridiculous teeth grinding, eye wiggling, stimulated club vibe & do it at home in a setting prepared fpr comfort & relaxation.

The other thing is, alot of mdma now regardless of how pure it's supposed to be is not even mdma. I've had someone swear they had the best mdma & a sample sent in for lab analysis came back 6-mapb.
In all honesty, the purity aspect is so bad now i'd have to advise not taking any mdma you havn't seen personally tested via reagent tests. Even then the tester must know very well how other things can react that can easily mask results & come up positive for mdma. A thin layer chromatagraphy kit would be ideal because i've yet to see anyone find a way to trick them.

Regarding your concerns about it affecting your work, or throwing you back into depression in my experience mdma does the exact opposite and provides a wonderful afterglow the day after and a noticeable increase in openess for a week or so after. I think the main reason it is so effective for treatment is that it allows your brain to recall pure joy if that has been lost through depression.
Only when very high doses are taken, or doses are taken very frequently you will start feeling down afterwards.
Of course every person is different.

I've got to say taking MDMA for the first time, for me, is absolutely nothing compared to taking DMT for the first time.

Personally, I see MDMA as a party drug and nothing more. Dead Man is right in saying the best setting for MDMA is music festivals or concerts etc.

MDMA is not a psychedelic and definitely not an entheogen, I seriously doubt you will gain anything from the experience spiritually.

MDMA will keep you up all night but if it's of a decent quality you won't have much of a hang over. I think MDMA is best taken with alcohol on a night out, not really for sitting in a room inside as Dead Man stated.

I love MDMA when on a night out, but I couldn't bare sitting in a room all night because it fills you with energy it just makes you want to dance....

Be prepared to look like this ---> for a few hours

It should be obvious to anyone who's been following the MDMA/PTSD studies that MDMA can be hugely beneficial when used right. Like everything else, it all depends on set and setting.

My preferred MDMA experience is taking it with a bunch of friends and going on a nice long hike. The stimulation allows you to keep a good pace up while trekking, and the feelings of openness can lead to wonderfully therapeutic experiences.

Find someone you're close to, find a lovely place, and I think you can get a lot out of it. It's not necessarily 'spiritual,' in the same way that DMT or psilocybin is, but that doesn't mean it can't be useful.

Don't do it alone in your room under the covers though. That's not a good way to use it.

Blessings
~ND

Chipping in here since I have an additional perspective to what's already been offered - I have done quality MDMA several times in a house and apartment with friends and it was wonderful every time. I've done it by myself in the woods - wonderful. At a festival with many others - wonderful.

Some of the clearest entity contact I've ever had was one night on quality MDMA after falling into a trance watching clouds pass over the full moon. Not the norm, but it happened. Have also had amazing OEV's and CEV's on it...and not just patterns, but very vivid/clear scenes/happenings that invoked very powerful emotional responses and felt deeply meaningful.


I would agree that MDMA is not entheogenic in the way that the classical psychedelics are, but I definitely would not say that it is not at all, or does not have any potential to be. And context, set/setting, etc all apply here just like with anything else.

It's different, but something that I think every explorer should experience at least once...no question about it.

I feel judged! Maybe just a little bit. I've been to some parties with the types of people I wouldn't normally hang out with or fit in with and took MDMA and had a great time. It really opened up how I connected with people and made me feel more comfortable in all social situations. The brain gets flooded with all the "feel good" feelings. I think that is valuable to experience at least once from just a scientific perspective, to know more about the chemicals that impact your moods. I liken the experience to what it would feel like being in Vegas on Christmas (but that might not mean something to someone who never parties ). It's basically like the feeling of waking up Christmas morning to a lit tree and a bunch of presents underneath, just that amazing sense of wholeness and wellbeing. I don't know much about if it's entheogenic or not, but I think it's a valuable experience from a human perspective. I think there's something to be said for "just feeling good" in that your brain builds new pathways as you have new experiences. That being said, my MDMA days are over after just one summer, and I don't think I could gain anything more by taking them again.

This. With good friends, somewhere nice. Set, setting and INTENTION - in order of increasing importance...

Quite a special molecule - when used right.

A great philosopher once wrote
"Naughty naughty very naughty"

It's best when you do stuff with it. Sitting still on MDMA is a nono for me.. Keeping some shrooms for when it's over is probably a official galactic guide to happiness somewhere in this universe.

I would eat cacti/try mescaline before mdma. If you decide to do mdma I would make sure its rea and purify it, I believe 1ce knows how to do this. They are both amazing but mdma doesn't seem like it should be used often and is often mislabeled although it does have some unique useful and thoroughly enjoyable characteristics. Mescaline has some similar qualities though much different and in my opinion far superior.

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I appreciate everything you took the time to explain. It's given me a lot to think about.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't mean my plan was to hide under a blanket and take MDMA. Mother Nature is my favorite venue, but, it's also subzero February where I live, so the experience would have to be indoors. (It might be fun to momentarily chill with my cats?? )

I haven't decided what I will do yet. I need to feel my friend out and try to figure out where he's at. He seemed kind of blank when I asked about set and setting, which added to my shaky vibe, too.

I agree that set and setting are definitely EVERYTHING. I love tripping, but I've even felt turned off to tripping when seeing psychedelics abused. Experiences like that always make me question myself... Am I really walking the walk? Or am I creating illusions for myself to hide from reality? I never want to be that person. I think when you choose to walk a path with drugs, in general, conscious intention is always something to be aware of, and something to maintain. I'm always squeamish seeing kids obliterated without direction. There's a lack of real guidance for drug use in western culture...

For example, I recently saw someone take too much MDMA, then wanted to get some sleep, so he took god knows how much liquid xanax and almost fell down the stairs. My only experiences with people taking MDMA have always been in the context of pounding a million other drugs in dangerous combinations before, during, and after. That's just. not. my scene.

So I suppose I'm questioning my own intentions, what I'm really getting into, and what I could possibly get out of it.

I really need to ferret out the details of my friend's intentions and I'll make my decision from there. I feel like he's dying to take me for a ride on a rocketship, but I don't know where we're going, or if he's chosen a destination. I don't want to blast off and hit an asteroid... or get lost in space.

I appreciate the input on the dose, as well. I feel much better about that now.

To use the analogy of wine, I know that's not an entheogen, but the right amount in the right context can be extremely lovely. Tipsy is nice (two glasses), but wasted is a disgusting no-no for me, I don't want to ever take something to make me feel bad. So, if I feel safe and like the MDMDA experience will be positive and lovely (as many of you have said in the right context, it can be), I may go for it.

Thanks again for all the feedback!

P.S. I have two weeks at the end of summer that will be perfect for cactus.

Hey ms manic

Like you, I'm generally wary of the MDMA crowd. I've dabbled with it and had some nice experiences, but I haven't ever "rolled my face off" so to speak. I think it can offer a lot depending on intention and set/setting, like anything else, but it's not going to change your entire perspective of reality in quite the same way that traditional psychedelics can.

Ironically, I've only met one other person who uses MDMA with spiritual intent. They actually prefer to sit at home and meditate (which seems odd to me on MDMA) with it. As a teenager this person had experimented with LSD but always had a terrible time, and since then he has always associated psychedelics with party culture and thinks the risks of getting spun out outweigh any potential benefits. He did MDMA recreationally for years until he had an MDMA "healing" done on him. He said it opened him up like nothing he had ever experienced in his entire life. Im not sure what the dose was but he said it was massive. He still takes MDMA when he can but he's never been back to that point. One day I was able to convince him to take ayahuasca with me and he admitted that it really opened him up, but he found the experience so physically uncomfortable that he never wants to do it again. He says he prefers the fact that MDMA is comfortable and easy, and chances are you aren't going to wig out and have a bad time.

Dunno if that's useful at all for you. Knowing this guy in person, and his often-times troubled personality, I have to say it says a lot to me about the nature of MDMA versus psychedelics. This is a person who has been looking for a full blown spiritual experience ever since that powerful MDMA experience gave him a peek, but because of association (and anxiety issues) he generally refuses to take psychedelics. After he took ayahuasca that one time he was extremely pleasant to be around for about a week, and then it slowly went away and he was back to his old self.

I think MDMA can be healing, but ime it doesn't challenge you in the way that psychedelics can...and imo that's the whole beauty of psychedelics.

All in all I'd say they are two different beasts, each with their own unique wisdom to offer. I dont think MDMA can offer you anything all too different that psychedelics can't do better but that's my own bias. If you feel comfortable with your intentions and with your friend I'd say go for it; chances are you'll have a great time and you might pick up some insight on the way, and worst case scenario you will finally know what MDMA has to offer and you'll know it's not for you.

I didn't mean to compare the MDMA experience to DMT per se or say it is an equal experience (obviously it isn't) but that it can be. I'm sure that my reaction would have been different if I'd been exposed to DMT or mushrooms before being taking MDMA. It just happenend to appear to me at a time before I'd done any other legit drugs (beside cannabis), and at a stage in my life where I was rather depressed without realizing it. Taking a high dose of MDMA in nature with very close friends, very much opened my eyes to what true happiness and true conections with people could feel like.
I find it rather unfair to simply dismiss a drug based on it's stigma, especially since we as a psychedelic community deal with the very same stigmas. Considering MDMA can be a save drug with potentially very positive effects I think we should treat it with respect. Rather than just dismissing it as a party drug just because YOU didn't experience any spiritual effects.


LSD and Mushrooms are also used in that context. Some people are just idiots.


You won't have much trouble with the cold on MDMA . Snow is an amazing and magical evironment to be on MDMA, please just make sure you are wearing proper clothing and don't freeze to death.

I didn't ingest any MDMA yet, but I love you guys

Having very little experience with it, and always in mild doses, I can't say too much. Obviously set/setting is everything, and like with psychedelics it's pretty hard to judge a drug or plant based on how we happen to witness select handfuls of people behaving on it.

For me, it once helped heal some deep seated cannabis anxiety during a period just after high school. Later that night, after a few close friends left, and the deeper and funner than usual conversation and shenanigans ended, I meditated to psychedelic trance music after smoking a lot of cannabis and had a very interesting experience with it.

An hour or so later I found that the best part was how it simply helped melt most of the fear I had of taking DMT that night (obviously never mix it with harmalas or changa though!), and didn't seem to effect the experience negatively for me. Although this was about 6 years ago and it was never tested, so it could have been something else.

I wouldn't mind taking a mild amount with cannabis, headphones, and led poi in the woods (and snow shoes)

I have limited experience with cactus unfortunately, but I'm told it does pretty much everything MDMA can do and much more. And from the glimpses I've had, I don't doubt it.

My personal viewpoint is that cactus is superior to MDMA in every possible way and it's hardly worth one's time to bother with MDMA.

That said, I also recommend to those that have never tried MDMA, that it's worth taking 2 times. Once in an intimate setting with a small group of people you are really close with; taking it with a lover can be very nice as well, but I think the group setting and community atmosphere encourages a different and deeper level of bonding. I also think it's worth taking once in a festival/rave/dance party atmosphere, preferably outdoors under the stars; bass thumping dance parties fueled by synthetic analogues of ancient medicines may be the only true right of passage we have in our modern industrialized culture.

I think it's important to blow the heart open with MDMA at least once, as many people have not had the opportunity to experience what that feels like, just to understand what is actually possible. The forced bliss of MDMA can't be sustained long term however, and the real prolonged work of keeping the heart open over the long term is better accomplished with regular spiritual practices such as metta meditation and frequent sustained medicine work with the plant teachers.

cacti tea; preferably mescaline hcl

mescaline on a sunny blue sky day, nothing like it. even in the higher dosages, the empathy stays strong, right by your side during the whole experience.

definitely my preferred over mdma.

I can't draw a comparison to Cacti but this ->



is very good advice, imho.

I'd say...go for it.

Good read: https://www.erowid.org/c...mdma/mdma_article3.shtml