Oh.. it'll work alright. You'd fill the room with acetone vapor for sure though.

Pitubo: then what do you suggest, where should the line be drawn? Mind you, there will *always* be irresponsible people now matter how you warn them. Again, why not just take DMT and ayahuasca analogs, the purpose of this forum, as the example? I will even state that there will happen more accidents due to irresponsible handling of DMT and harmala alkaloids.

Do we really have to worry about some irresponsible jerk that despite all information harms himself? Then it would be hypocritical to only discuss solvents and reagents. Again, DMT and harmala alkaloids themselves. I'm sure they have a lower LD50 than chloroform, for example.

"I agree but I can't help thinking that eg. an ayahuasca session hold much more risk than to perform a simple distillation"

Ive met 2 people who caused large explosions distilling...never heard of anything like that from an ayahuasca session.

That is a serious fallacy in argumenting. Then I can add, I have met people in psychiatry, who had severe psychosis due to irresponsible (ab)use of DMT. I have known someone who needed to be hospitalized due to a harmala & 5-MeO-DMT overdose. "I have met" is often not a very good criterium to begin with. If I were to believe that that is a common thing, there would be home brewers and perfumers blowing themselves up all the time. You know why that doesn't happen, because these people are well-informed and go about their task responsibly. But sure, you hear alot about stoners burning themselves because they try to evaporate butane on an open flame.

Another thing, most of the irresponsible things I've known to happen are due to TEKs. In the old days I have known people (over the internet, The Hive) who made MDMA on a pretty large scale. Along the process they have contaminated themselves, their loved ones and they have put a heavy strain on the environment with mercury-laden corrosive waste. These people were not chemists, they did not have a clue what they were doing, and thhey didn't need to, because it was all mashed down in a step-by-step TEK. So if you think accidents don't happen with DMT and ayahuasca you are very mistaken.

I can imagine other plausible scenarios. For example, one guy has a plant that instead of DMT contains 2-Me-THBC. This is well known with some plants, eg. some strains and varieties of Phalaris, or Acacia, who have seasonal variations on tryptamines/beta-carbolines. Of course, a simple TLC would have identified the matter, but our guy is lazy, doesn't have plates or doesn't care. He makes an extract of 2-Me-THBC and ingests it. I hope you are familiar with the fact that 2-Me-THBC is an MPTP analogue and, although it doesn't irreversably deplete dopamine in the substantia nigra like MPTP, the beta-carbolinium ion may exert neurotoxicity and inhibit mitochondrial respiration. This is a possible scenario, and can be avoided when adequate precautions, a simple TLC, is taken. But it is bound to happen.

So again, where do we draw the line? And should we really encourage TEK-style write-ups?

Well of course there are always going to be those "special" kinds if people. Like the ones that refuse to wear goggles while sloshing around NaOH and dribble lighter fluid all over the place with a turkey bastor. And then, there is that special, brightly incandescent gem of humanity that takes a torch to their chloroform after they left it out in the sun for 2 weeks in 105F weather.

Or the ones that get overly excited that they get to play with acids, caustic bases and pay no heed to the order of which you mix them with water. Forget about these people. There are consequences for their actions, and terminally stupid decisions. We can teach them this, show them the consequences, and set them up for success but you can't help somebody that won't help themself. But these people are quite few in number here.

I don't think anyone here is trying to prevent darwin awards. Some folks here can't even manage mason jars and turkey bastors. Others are too broke to build a lab, and can barely afford the extraction. For others, this IS their introduction to chemistry, a reason for them to gain interest in it, because suddenly it's practical. They can apply it. Finally, there is a group if people that don't mind using disposable equipment, they may only smoke once every couple months even. There are members here that have gotten obscenely high purity crystal formations with.. mason jars.. and turkey bastors..

Nobody is saying we can't use rotovaps, schlenk lines, and n2 generators in their extractions. I think what dreamer is saying is that it's great some of us can play with more advanced techniques. And that (this is purely optional) we could benefit the community by finding alternative ways to use these techniques in our practice. It doesn't have to be mason jars and turkey bastors, anything helps. Isn't that what science madness is about? Out of the box thinking? I remember a guy there who synthethised hydroflouric acid on his front lawn using home built equipment. If that's not out of the box then what is?

We also have an advanced chem section where we can post up techniques and routes that are not applicable for most.

I think what snozz is saying, is that all sorts of people come to us for help. We take non chemist, people of all languages/walks of life and help them prepare DMT in a pure, safe, form suitable for consumption. Who the hell are we to deny them that liberty, or an experience/spiritual awakening that is their human right to have. And I think this place does a remarkably good job at doing exactly that.

Those of us that are researchers, or who have that knowledge, can teach people about the process, and find new ways to extract/harvest entheogens. Grow them even. They need us to help and guide them and we're trusted to not give people bad advice. You hold people's safety and freedom in your hands, and man, that's huge.

Likewise, without them, and our common interest, who do we have to teach, who do we have to help? Who does our research benefit? We are all part of the same community gathered here for the same purpose. You've already benefited us and gave us a nice contribution. People can take that in their private lab, tweak on it, post their findings. Then people will start working out ways for all people to gain that benefit, weather in whole, or in part.

We all have a way to contribute, even if it's only comical relief.

Actually, 2-Me-THBC was found to be a regular compound of ayahuasca. The likening of it to MPTP (and MPP+) is spiced with a good amount of FUD. There's a nexus thread about it, 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline.

Exactly!

"Of course, a simple TLC would have identified the matter, but our guy is lazy, doesn't have plates or doesn't care. He makes an extract of 2-Me-THBC and ingests it. I hope you are familiar with the fact that 2-Me-THBC is an MPTP analogue and, although it doesn't irreversably deplete dopamine in the substantia nigra like MPTP, the beta-carbolinium ion may exert neurotoxicity and inhibit mitochondrial respiration. This is a possible scenario, and can be avoided when adequate precautions, a simple TLC, is taken. But it is bound to happen."

I have ingested grass extracts with it at least 20 times, willingly..as well as other obscure beta-carbolines... I am fine. It's not proven to be toxic in humans afaik...just like gramine isn't. There is speculation, but I chose to take that risk knowing very well all of this.

I wont suggest others do it. I never experienced any negative side effects however.

None of this should be for the realm of inexperienced people new to all of this...but that's my idealization. The reality is that lots of people who dont understand anything about any of this stuff come here to read these forums and get all sorts of ideas..I cant begin to tell you have many random pm's I have gotten about grasses from people who read my documents, and yet fail to listen to my cautions...they just want DMT for free. I cant change that many people will come here with that approach..so we have to remain cautious...and it's happened in the past already here where people have burnt they're eyebrows off trying to heat naptha over an open flame etc...because they never bothered to educated themselves properly. We have to basically stupid-proof this place. That's just how it is, otherwise it could come back to bite us(or trav etc) in the ass.

As this thread is going all kinds of directions other than its title anyway, I'd like to ask you about gramine. Lately I have been looking for factual information regarding its toxicity in humans, alone and in combination with MAOI or RIMA. So far, I haven't found a lot of scientific information on the subject. Is there any good referenced information to be found that I may have missed?


What was your ROA? Smoked or oral with harmalas?


IMHO we shouldn't be taking away all responsibilities from people, but we should anticipate their stupidities with compassion, not respond after the fact with gleeful Darwin awards.

Maybe in a combined effort between forum cleanup and for all of our benefit perhaps we should expand the advanced chem section. Make it more diverse, have a section about projects people are working on and can journal for group benefit; or projects the community needs help with. Perhaps a section where people can ask advanced questions.

With a careful iteration of expectations stickied nobody will need to feel like they're sitting at the kiddie table, or wading pool anymore.

Considering the large difference in boiling point between these compounds, couldn't the THBC be separated by vaporizing everything in a high boiling solvent, and cutting the heads and tales?

If it resembles the regular harmala alkaloids in properties, it might be possible to separate it by exploiting the very limited solubility of the free base in most solvents.

There's really not very much about 2-MTHBC on the wiki...



Does this apply to leptaflorine/THH as well as the usual harmine and harmaline? Because 2-MTHBC might be expected to be more similar to leptaflorine, i.e. no Manske precipitation.