Hello,

SWIM has attempted one extraction using Marsofold's tek but got very poor yields from 50g of MHRB (just enough for one pipe full and it burnt rather than vapourised so he misfired).

Since then SWIM has read in the DMT Handbook that Phosphoric acid is preferred rather than distilled vinegar (that SWIM used) as this will improve the yield. However, SWIM doesn't have any Phosphoric acid, but he has managed to buy some lab grade Hydrochloric.

Does anyone know if its OK to use this? The stuff is evil. When the lid is removed vapours can be seen escaping. SWIM is slightly concerned about putting this in water and then boiling it!

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

W

Yes you can use it. Be very careful. Don't breathe any in and don't get it on your skin. Citric acid is just as good and 1000 times safer and you can get it in food grade form! Who knows what nasty toxic crap is in lab grade hydrochloric acid! I would NOT use it if I were you. I would use 100% food grade and safe citric acid instead.

Make sure you are using an eye dropper, or something small & controllable like that to add it to the water a drop at a time!!

It only takes 2-4 drops at the most to bring the pH of water down to where you want it (3-4pH), so don't try pouring it.

BTW, by the time you are finished with the extraction, any traces of the HCL will (or should...) be gone.
So don't worry about it dirtying up the final product, just be careful & don't use a lot of it.
And Wear Gloves!!

Also, I'd recommend using a different more neutral acid if doing something like the FASA tek, or if your are re-acidifying something.
But using HCL works quite well for the initial acid soaks in an A/B tek, where you are fisrt getting the alkaloids out of the plant material.


Cheers!

WS

Thanks for the reply.

Citric acid sound better. Is this a watched chemical, can it be safely, easily purchased? SWIM went out of his way to buy HCL without arousing suspicion. If this is the preferred acid he would rather use Citric as he doesn't want to introduce comtaminants if there is no need to.

W

Many groceries (especially Asian) sell citric acid as "sour salt". A lot of vitamin shops have it too. It’s not at all a watched chemical. It’s used in cooking, home canning, etc.

Also: HCl is volatile, it might damage some metal kitchen utensils or lung tissue when boiled for too long
Yes, I got my citric acid at the nearest Asian shop around the corner ('Toko' as we call it). One of the most common and harmless acids, it's even part of our metabolism! I guess tartric acid is fine too.

Just HCl and water nothing really else.

Anyway there is no need to use HCl in these kind of extractions. SWIM would recommend those who are not comfortable using such strong chemicals stick with the safer food grade stuff. Especially if one is working in a kitchen as concentrated HCl is quite dangerous.

If that was so they would market it as FOOD GRADE (FCC GRADE) or USP GRADE, and not LAB GRADE. By law you cannot use LAB GRADE chemicals in anything you plan to eat. It must either be FCC or USP, not LAB GRADE. LAB GRADE is not edible.

I did about $4000 damage to the chrome on my motorcycle wile doing a prodecure in my garage with with the stuff nothing went wrong the shit is just strong. As WS says I used just a few drops from a eyedroper. Then I put the rest in storage and it corroded half the stuff in my storage bin wile still in the plastic bottle. If its all you can get use it. Almost all the teks 20years ago call for it I was to stupid 20 years ago to know you could use almost any acid. You had to work alot harder to learn things back in the day. heh

gloves,saftey googles and preferably a fume hood. and no exposed skin prolly wise to have a spill kit ready. something to make the acid ph netural with out generating toxic fumes. see and lots of water for rinsing. No Metal

M.V.

Maybe so, but on a strictly "purity" basis, so-called "reagent grade" (which I assume is the same as "lab grade" ) is considered the most carefully purified grade of any chemical you can buy.

Ya know, after all the talk of being careful, I should also mention that I've always gotten my cleanest yields, when I've used a good strong acid during the acid soak step of an A/B tek.

I don't know if you really need Hydrochloric acid, but it has provided very clean spice when I've used it.


WS

No, REAGENT GRADE is not the same as LAB GRADE. LAB GRADE is horrible and often contains lots of toxic crap in it, that’s why it is so much cheaper. REAGENT GRADE is not the purist you can get. And it can legally contain all sorts of toxic crap in it and cannot be used for food. There’s a reason you can only use FOOD GRADE or USP GRADE by law ok. Look it up. The reason is that only FOOD GRADE (FCC) or USP GRADE is considered edible by law. REAGENT GRADE is NOT edible by law because it can legally contain extremely toxic impurities, while FOOD GRADE and USP GRADE cannot.

I’ve looked all this stuff up a while ago, and I know this to be a fact. Look it up and you’ll see, in the US you cannot use anything other than FOOD GRADE (FCC) or USP GRADE chemicals in anything that will be ingested by human beings. You can be sued if you do because even REAGENT GRADE can contain extremely toxic crap it in. That’s why it says right on the bottle “for lab use only”.

You should not use anything other than FOOD GRADE or USP GRADE period. The only time you should ever use anything like LAB GRADE HCl is when there is no other possible alternative. If you value your health and you can only get LAB GRADE, it’s best just to forget it.

Hello all,

Thanks for all the replies.

As SWIM is a complete novice when it comes to extraction, chemistry etc he thinks it may be best to avoid using the HCL for now. He's just found out the local home brew shop stocks Citric acid, so will purchase some of this and take it from there.

Thanks again,

W

Good info on lad/food/reagent grade chems 69Ron, unfortunately most of us are limited to using whatever we can get ahold of.
As a related question on hydrochloric acid does anyone know how to translate molarities of HCL to % purity?

Just dont drink it. I dropped a gallon of it back when I was doing pools and it went into my mouth as I inhaled. Puked yellow shit for a while, and had to have my eyes irrigated.
Be careful, or use a more dilute acid, like acetic/citrus...

-G7

Using HCL won't change your yields that much. Vinegar is safer and requires less NaOH to basify. I use either vinegar or phosphoric and there isn't much of a difference in extactions.


You can get phosphoric acid from beer brewing shops (beer beer and more beer).

Now when brewing up Aya, there is a HUGE difference between vinegar and phosphoric acid. I almost always use phosphoric when brewing up Aya.

Are you sure food grade doesn't have to do with the concentration of HCl in the water?

There is always an impurity profile on most lab reagents and solvents but you could be right for sure. SWIM never reads it SWIM doesn't really use HCl for ingesting stuff anyway. SWIM can check SWIMs bottle if SWIM remembers.

Anyway I think the lesson here is why bother with HCl when there are safer acids.

Yes. FOOD GRADE (FCC) is very strict in terms of what contaminants can be present. It's similar in this way to USP grade. USP grade is more pure, but still the type of contaminants it can have must be edible or considered safe to ingest in the quantities present. This is NOT so with ACS REAGENT grade or LAB GRADE or TECHNICAL GRADE in which case they can contain anything considered too toxic for humans to ingest. Some ACS REAGENT grade is 99.99% pure, however, that 00.01% can legally be ANYTHING, even the most toxic crap in the universe could be in it. Not so with USP or FOOD GRADE. That's the difference. USP or FOOD GRADE can be less pure than ACS REAGENT, but their impurities must be safe to ingest.

Yes there are even higher grades of solvents and reagents for other purposes. But your right after a certain point the impurities don't need to be defined and the conditions are different for lab and food grade. This is also true with pharmaceuticals and well anything including food but quantitivily it varies. Many solvents come with impurity profiles however that represent the kinds of levels that need to be reported for impurities in pharmaceutical down to (0.1 or 0.01% of an active component).