One of the best articles I've read on addiction, really looking forward to reading this book. Anyone read it? Anyone have any insight or other resources to look at for current addiction research and theories?

http://www.filmsforactio...t-is-not-what-you-think/

As an addendum I'm currently reading High Price, and highly recommend it.

My opinion ---- >

The person doesnt know the difference between physical and mental adiction . And to say that all one has to do to give up physical adiction is to put a person in a different environment is sick . That peson has never been physicly adicted .

The fact that patients can give up heroin easyer than street consumers has to do with the lack of social stigma for the patients and the purity of the drug . Most patients also dont feel the need to esacpe from their " lives " .

Besides getting some things muddled up the " new " idea is an old idea ...... and ...... yes its true . People who have a difficult social position and personal problems tend to look for ways to come to terms / live with it . Its called escapeism .

If we look its the failed / rouge states that have the biggest problems . In civilised countrys patients get helped with proper medical and psychelogical treatment and clean drugs .

Did you actually read the article? What is according to you the difference between a physical and a mental addiction in terms of addictiveness?


This is actually what the article describes.


I take it that by "failed / rogue states" you mean those states most actively involved in The War On Drugs (TM)

As one who is involved with the addiction treatment community, I'm constantly amazed at the lack of progress in the area considering the ubiquity of the problem. The author of this book poses some good and serious points. I've top often been witness to the death of people i care about who are actively involved in ineffective treatment. Until we look at the issue of drug addiction from a humanist perspective, unsullied by moral dogma will we find an avenue to deal with it effectively.

I dont really see your issue with it either, G. I do understand what you're saying but dont feel your point is valid. A physical addiction, the need for heroin to prevent the onset of severe debilitating withdrawal effects for example, is really much easier to grasp than a purely emotional one, like the desire for more and more crack cocaine that the smoker of that substance endures. They however, originate from the same place within. A drug doesn't become physically addicting until one ingests it regularly as the result of a psychological addiction for some time. (I am talking about drugs that are taken voluntarily, on a hedonistic basis, not doctor-assisted addiction). So, what is the issue? A person consumes the mind altering substance for a reason, whether it's to enjoy a rave or if it's to stare at his tenement wall. To receive some enjoyment. When one learns they can escape the misery of the world outside by putting a substance inside, the choice has been made.

Then again, the discussion isn't really about WHY people consume them, but what can be offered in the stead of drugs? What can fulfill a human so that they can work towards the realization of their potential?

I do think that it is easier to kick a physical addiction when in a more favourable environment. Also if one feels that they have a decent future ahead for themselves a cluck can be easier.



I agree. Drug addiction is usually a social problem. Down at heel communities are not that way due to drugs. The drug use is a symptom of the poverty. Our governments make laws to lock people up for taking drugs because they are poor and the reason they are poor is down to said governments not governing the populace properly. I cannot see a day when a politician holds their hands up for being responsible for their country"s drug problems.



The problem is not just the lack of human connection, it is also a lack of positive stimulus. If there was a whole crowd of rats in the the bare cage rather than the luxury rat park i reckon they still would have turned to drugs.

Nothing. As a brain hack, their effectiveness is unparalleled. Any substitutes (there are few if any) require significantly more time and money.

EDIT: Furthermore...
Anyone who thinks it is normal to feel fulfilled all the time will probably feel disappointed and helpless with actual normal life. Knowing how to deal with being less than content is vital. Life is not always entertaining and everyone finds themselves sitting and doing absolutely nothing for an hour from time to time. Someone who doesn't take such time to meditate on their mediocre condition is not healthy in my opinion.

Time and money is a good start for helping someone realise their potential.

By "time", I guess I meant work. For example, it may seem like the work required to have sex is well worth it for the orgasm, but compare that to a dose of heroin which can be applied immediately with much less work, feels much better, and lasts much longer. If we ignore the negative after-effects (as humans often do), the heroin is the much more efficient option.

I think a fulfilled spiritual life where one finds meaning in their relationships with people, or plants/earth/god is more effective ultimately than drugs in its capacity to produce joy. I think there is a difference between feeling good all the time and being fulfilled. I don't feel good all the time, but I do feel fulfilled in being able to exist here in this reality for my short stint and help people. Drugs are inconsistent in their ability to bring profound, long lasting happiness. They are consistent in their ability for a quick pick-up, but how does one feel after?
I did not read ALL of the article, but about half of it, so forgive me if I've missed something crucial.
I'm just chiming in because I found for me at least, a change of environment, situation and people allowed me to kick addictive relationships with certain drugs. I mean, drugs are similar to people in the way that it provides a temporary sort of 'new' consciousness to converse with. I once heard a person call marijuana a 'jealous woman', in that it is hard to connect with others when in the midst of addiction. And I like weed and think it has great healing potential, but I don't consider it an ally in an addictive or toxic relationship with the plant.
Just my two cents. Perhaps we agree more than I've interpreted, and I don't mean to get on any soapbox, but I did find myself resonating with the article.

This thread, and that article are remarkable dreamer, thanks for sharing!

I agree with everything you said in this statement, up until the phrase "mediocre condition." Why did you choose the word "mediocre?" Yes, it is impossible to be stimulated, productive, & active 24 hours a day - I have a pretty manic personality, & I've tried, both with drugs & without drugs, & sure enough, as you said, I felt constantly disappointed and dissatisfied with my life & hobbies, up to the point where I basically stopped doing any activity except eating, sleeping, & and going to work, for fear that it would cause me stress because I wasn't doing it "right," or "good enough," or wasn't meeting up to some sort of non-existent, irrelevant expectation that I set for myself. My hobbies basically turned into part-time jobs.

THAT is a mediocre condition in my opinion - being essentially debilitated in a hypochondriacal fashion - a whole lot of mind games that one plays with oneself. Practicing moderation in day-to-day life, however, both in activities & in mood (because, again, as you said, nobody is ecstatic & jumping with joy 100% of the time), is not mediocrity, at least not in my interpretation, though the word has different connotations for different people.

The answer is simple we offer and give then love. That is IMHO the only drug substitution.

Love is the only think that can ever work. And we our selves are the ones we have to start with. Its not easy but it can be done. All it takes is choose good instead of evil. At the end of the day we all have free will and can decide anything we like. Anything.

I may have been a bit careless in my choice of words. What I meant is that if one imagines that their life should be 24/7 happy stimulation, then the reality will seem mediocre by comparison. I really enjoy the reality of it, and I believe that the reflective downtime is necessary in order to fully appreciate the high points in life.

EDIT:
Some (most?) people don't know how to do this sort of reflection; like it has never occurred to them to do it. I partially have psychedelics to thank for that. I've always been very contemplative but I guess I didn't really know how to deal with sadness well before psychedelic drugs. But anyways, people who haven't discovered that type of emotional awareness don't know how to handle sadness and boredom, and I think they tend to panic when they feel like they are not being stimulated.

Louis C.K. talks about this very well. His insightfulness is always surprising to me.

I can definitely sympathize with being a contemplative person. I always have been, & have kind of been deemed "weird" because of it. After using psychedelics though, the mindset has gone from "I'm wrong & everyone else is right" to wrong/right not really existing anymore. Everything "is," & that's all. People think I'm weird/strange/a serial killer because I don't have cable or a TV, or that I'm some kind of anachronistic anomaly from times past because I enjoy doing things like being outdoors or reading books. God forbid someone has an intellectual mindset, or doesn't find sitting slack-jawed in front of TV for four hours watching millionaires throw a ball around to be entertaining.

Over-stimulation, (especially technological forms of stimulation), is a massive problem in society today. The Louis C.K. clip you posted is actually shockingly accurate, & I've never seen anyone comprehensively & eloquently explain these kinds of thoughts in less than five minutes. The clip reminds me of a conversation I had with a coworker a few weeks ago who's a bit older than me (in his 40s). He told me he doesn't enjoy Cannabis anymore unless it's in a social setting because he doesn't like to be "alone with his thoughts." I found this statement to be very sad personally. The topic of Cannabis aside completely, I cannot possibly comprehend why someone would consider being "alone with their thoughts" a negative thing.

You're absolutely right when you say that people can't handle boredom. Constant stimulation is a necessity - if you're not attending school full time, working full time, volunteering at a soup kitchen on the weekends, & writing a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel simultaneously, then you're underachieving and kind of a loser - at least this is the attitude that I've always dealt with when interacting with people in high school/brief stint in college (I went to a "college preparatory high school" whose yearly tuition cost more than most state colleges, & where kids got BMW's and Acura's for their 16th birthdays). When I tell people I like to sometimes spend my free time sitting at my kitchen table, drinking tea, & looking out my window, they look at me like I have nine heads, or like I just admitted to some heinous crime.

When I told a coworker I wasn't planning on watching the Super Bowl this year, I was told that I would be kidnapped from my home in the middle of the night, tied to a chair, have my eyelids clamped open, & be forced to watch it. Why? Why are people so afraid of intellect? The fact that I'm not constantly pummeling my consciousness with advertisements & propoganda to socially program me into another gray-faced "human being" makes me "weird" & "different." The fact that I don't need to stare at a glowing box of lights for hours a day, in a futile attempt to turn my gaze ever outward, ever further from my core, to drown out my thoughts makes me a pariah. I cannot understand the anti-intellectual attitude that the brainless masses have. Are people jealous? Afraid to admit they're wrong? Afraid to admit that they're truly alone, & that falling asleep in a bed alone with the TV on is hardly the same as falling asleep in a bed with another person? Life is essentially a preparation for death. When I die, I want to be able to be satisfied with what I did in my life. These people have no concept of mortality - they act is if they will live forever, & when their health begins to fail from a combination of stress, malnutrition, lack of exercise & fitness, & an overarching sense of misery that pervades their existence, they act surprised.

Sorry for the massive rant, these topics have been discussed at length between me & several other people over the past few weeks, & the Louis C.K. video really actually pushed me over the edge and encouraged me to write all this, because mindless & inattention are the biggest plagues that modern society will ever face.

It was meaningful and funny at times. I enjoyed reading it. I'm glad to be able to connect like this with other people, even if it is over the internet. I'm at a time in my life right now where I actually do want to get out there and be more social, but what I'm finding is that it's nearly impossible to meet other introverts in person. I guess there's no surprise there, since we all spend most of our free time alone in contemplation. There are no clubs for introverted people, so naturally all of the venues for social interaction are...anti-contemplative.

So anyways, maybe the point of that was to warn that while we are ever-evolving inside, the world around us is evolving to accommodate people who are not like us. So, to protect our interests, we have to find a way to reach outward to others like us. Ideally, this reaching outward will, in turn, allow us to better reach inward.

[Sorry for basically derailing this thread]

Hey ya'll; gonna jump in here. Hixidom you said something that pulled me in. And if you feel sorry for derailing, this will certainly make you feel less of a violator cause I'm taking it a bit further.



But the world is not some detached thing separate from ourselves. The only way the world around us can leave us out is if we leave ourselves out.

I dream of a community, or at least a communal area in nature (with yurts, cob structures, underground dwellings, hammocks, etc), where people can gather, explore, have events - meditations, yoga, jam sessions, have big delicious feasts etc, have a garden, fruit trees, hiking trails, etc - I'd love to see things like this start popping up. I know the people are out there; people who would love to participate in something like this...to connect with others in a different way/setting than has already been made available (at least in the areas I'm familiar with - and I know they are not the only ones - far from it) - or to just have somewhere they can go and soak in the environment/communal setting. We have parks and nature centers, sure, but this is different.

This is something I've wanted to do in my home town for years, and as soon as I have money for land or permission to use someone else's, it will begin. I encourage everyone to dream up things like this - there's nothing holding us back from creating our own gathering places.

We can change the world so that the world is not just evolving to accommodate other people - that is up to us - to create whatever type of setting jives with you and others in your community. So what if other venues aren't what we like - they were created by other people - obviously we are slacking and not doing our part to create divisions of society for ourselves, that's all this is.

"Build your own damn boat" as Terence McKenna said.


[And as for the derailing - this is actually all very related to the original topic posted by dreamer, as it has to do with the lack of connection many people feel/experience in their lives which could be what leads many to addiction/destructive behavior. I have a desire to do something about that, in my own way - and I hope others will take matters into their own hands too, and do things in their own ways. It could enrich society and the lives of all involved.]

This is really great. Your vision is far ahead of mine.

Bumping an old thread.

I just finished reading Chasing the Scream and I am extremely impressed with it. The story is captivating and the journey the author shares is enthralling. It traces the story of the drug war from the early moments of Harry Anslingers life through american history and around the world, giving first hand accounts from the people on the front lines, from street addicts, dealers, and prisoners to doctors, scientists, and politicians. It's the most comprehensive and well articulated account of just how things came to be this way, that I've encountered to date.

I've been doing a lot of research into the general area of addiction. I've read In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, The Globalization of Addiction, and High Price. I've studied the statistics and journal publications and listened to all the interviews. What really wowed me about this book is how well the author synthesized all this information into a cohesive whole. This one really nails it and lays out it out in a gripping and easy to read manner. If you read one book about addiction and/or the war on drugs make it this one. Highly recommended as required reading material for every member of this forum.

Well I'm a 40 year old who doesn't really enjoy cannabis with other people as I find it to distracting. When I smoke cannabis my mind wants to turn inward and I want to go to my meditation mat and sit for at least the first hour of it.

I'm the same way with psychedelics as well. LSD and mescaline being the exception.. low doses that is. LSD over 300ug with people is just frustrating and I can't handle it. I want to lay down and close my eyes and go inside.... 100ugs though is a very social experience for me me and same with low dose mescaline.

Shrooms with people.. NOPE. I can do really low doses like this, but then I have to ask myself why am I wasting my shrooms? I suppose aya or shrooms in a ceremonial context with other people would be ok... you know people taking them with the express intent to go inside and not party together..but my day's of partying with shrooms are LONG gone. Not my cup of tea. I'd rather hang out sober and talk about the psychedelic experience than actually try to hold the experience at bay while I talk about random shit.

Anyway I wasn't alway's like this. I started meditating over 20 years ago and initially it was really hard to keep my but glued to a mat or chair for 30 minutes. However, over the years I have really learned to appreciate this time. Everyone knows it's my time and I am never bothered.. It is the ultimate escape for me. So the average person can't stand boredom because they have never been taught how to watch their mind...like they watch TV.... Man the shit that goes by my mind in the course of a 60 minute meditation session is VASTLY more interesting than whatever reality tv show the masses are watching.