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Trying to Explain Away DMT: An analysis of "The Case Against DMT Elves" Options
 
chocobeastie
#1 Posted : 12/31/2014 1:07:50 AM

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http://www.julianpalmerism/jameskent.html

[This was initially written to be a part of my book "Articulations", but didn't quite make the grade, so here it is. If you like this, you are probably going to like "Articulations" a lot more than this.]

http://www.articulationsbook.com

The internet conversation between the science author Clifford Pickover and psychedelic writer James Kent, called The Case Against DMT Elves is quite well known in DMT circles. I think this conversation is worth deconstructing, because it is almost a parody of how ‘materialistic’ types try and to deny the many mysteries that the DMT state presents to us.

James Kent writes:

"In short, I do not believe DMT is a gateway to an alternate dimension, nor does it induce contact with autonomous elves and alien entities. Yes, DMT produces a vivid otherworldly landscape when ingested, often including elves, aliens, insects, snakes, jaguars, etc. This is true for the majority of people who try it. Some people do not have such vivid responses but many do.

"But the difference between pressure phosphenes and DMT is that DMT is illegal and very hard to come by, so most people never have the opportunity to experience it. If we could all hold our breath for a minute and produce vivid hallucinations of alien landscapes it would seem quite mundane, no more than a mere curiosity of the human condition."

At this point, many may be thinking that their DMT stash is worthless, far from being precious, and rush to apply pressure to their eyeballs and hold their breath simultaneously. Seriously though, holding one's breath and pressing one's eyeballs has never been, nor I doubt it ever will be, in any repertoire of shamanic practice.

"Now don't get me wrong, DMT is stunning in its effect, no doubt. But, like anything, when you do it many times the magic tends to wear off and reveal itself for what it is; an exotic aberration of the brain's perceptual mechanics."

This theory of aberration apparently describes complex phenomena away as a kind of elaborate mistake.

Kent’s first premise is that:

"DMT acts primarily at the 5-HT2A receptor, and disrupts and excites the said receptor. When the visual system is disrupted for any reason we get phosphine activity, which is the visual system's version of a ‘ringing in the ears’. Phosphine activity is chaotic, but as we all know chaos does not produce random noise, it is familiar and predictable, and produces some damn trippy patterns."

His second premise is:

"The archetypal DMT ‘entities’ are pretty well categorised, with most people seeing elves or aliens or fairies or angels or some kind of loopy little spirits that dance about and tell riddles."

In my experience, and that of hundreds, if not thousands of people I have spoken to, is that this is not correct at all. What people often experience is often extremely alien! Experiences of archetypal beings like angels, fairies, elves, gods and goddesses are a welcome and familiar respite from the total alienness of the beings that most people meet. Only very rarely, do I hear of people telling me of meeting fairies, or angels, or elves, or ‘loopy little spirits that dance about’. Most people communicate about beings of much more magnitude and scope than this. Very often people have experiences of these beings carrying out work on them, of healing them, perhaps even of diseases such as cancer.

He sums up saying:

"In short, concrete psychedelic visuals may be nothing more than chaotic visual patterns overlapped with images created from waking dreams."

The dreamscape and the DMT-scape are two totally different realms. People do not normally meet alien beings within the dreamscape. Normally, the raw data of dreams is parsed by the human mind into symbols or familiar reference points. Psychedelic visuals are not chaotic and the geometry is often considered to be the mathematical world made visible. DMT visuals are normally quite elegant and ordered like highly sophisticated art, not just ‘chaotic’ and therefore ‘aberrant’.

Kent continues:

"Why is the alien/elf archetype so common to the DMT experience? The only answer I have is that we humans must have innate evolutionary wetware that forces our senses to latch onto any piece of anthropomorphic data that pops into otherwise randomly uniform data.…"

Alien is a very broad terminology and there is not one alien archetype. The Whitley Strieber ‘grey’ alien is not unknown in the DMT space, but it is not exactly common either. I have met only a few people who have seen this type of alien after smoking DMT.

"Now, given the amazing swirling kaleidoscopic imagery produced in the typical DMT trip, it is inevitable that anthropomorphic shapes will emerge and then express themselves in even greater detail as the mind latches onto them and ‘dreams’ them into focus."

So what he is saying, I believe, is that the human brain is making the geometric data into human-like forms. The geometric images he interprets as being generated by the disruption of the 5-HT2A receptor, I would say, does not normally consist of ‘kaleidoscopic swirling’ forms but has an ordered depth and appears more like ‘art’ rather than random noise.

"Given all of this, in a nutshell, the case for autonomous disincarnate DMT entities is closed. All that is needed to produce them is our own over-excited visual system and imagination, and thus Occam's razor wipes them right off the table and into the fairy-dust bin."

Firstly, the terminology used here – disincarnate – reeks of the perspective that we humans are at the centre of the world, or that we humans are the only ‘incarnate’ possibility. The word also implies ghosts! Personally, this explanation does not ‘fly’ with me and, I think, most others with extensive experience of good quality natural DMT.

"The fact that DMT ‘consciousness’ reveals itself in so many forms tells me that the ‘messenger’ – be it elf, alien, jaguar, or whatever – is basically arbitrary within the context of the patterns and archetypes our minds tend to pick out of random noise."

Arbitrary, random, noise. All these words represent again the imposition of the perspective that we are dealing with an aberration – a mistake, a mutated accident. Sound familiar?

"And when you get to the heart of what the typical DMT message is, it is usually something about the environment or living systems or the vast plant consciousness that penetrates our world. The ‘Gaia consciousness’ that infuses the experience is undeniable, and what to make of that I don't know, other than to entertain the possibility that this ancient plant consciousness actually exists and is attempting to make itself known through the DMT- enlightened mammal brain."

This is extremely evident!

"If so, then this is the real discovery of the DMT experience, and this is the topic that should be looked at more closely. In the context of DMT being a two-way radio for plant-human communication, the ‘elves’ themselves are nothing more than a cartoon interface for the exchange of information."

Well, the ‘elves’ are, in a sense, interfaces for the exchange of information. It is well known that a particular character, -- a cloaked man --, would appear in people's DMT experience on the far north coast of NSW in Australia, at a time when people were extracting DMT from only one large stand of acacia obtusifolia trees.

Yet, the interface is often the plants themselves, they do not need elves in order to communicate with us. They communicate in with images, feelings, emotions, sounds, in essence, just like we do, but without necessarily using language. The communication is more like ‘body language’, and many people say that 90 percent of human communication is body language.

This is a typical DMT report you can find online, written by ‘raven3davis’ on the ‘Drugs Forum’:

"Sometimes I see complex machines which explain how everything works to me. There are many secret languages being spoken and written and everything at the time makes complete sense. Everything is so strange, yet completely comprehendible when you are high. The world is also constantly flowing. In the matter of one second, you might see 1000 different colors, patterns, places, or things. I often get a sense of pushiness from the entities. They always have so many things to do in such a certain amount of time. It is hard to remember what they say to me most of the time (we will explain why later), but the theme is always of good nature."

I would say this report is completely consistent with my experiences and those of most people I meet.

Whereas James Kent would have us believe something aberrant is occurring in people's DMT experienc, and yet how can ‘such aberrance’ move people so much? How commonly does random noise move people?

This reminds me of once listening to the Australian broadcaster Phillip Adams, who contended that dreams were only the contents of the subconscious working themselves out. My thought at the time was, yes, there are dreams that are the subconscious working itself out. But there are dreams with such meaning and impact you will wake up in the middle of the night in order to remember them. To say that dreams have no meaning is just as awkward as saying that DMT experiences have no meaning, as meaning is clearly felt. The ancient Greeks categorised dream experiences in differing levels of importance and significance and perhaps we would do well to do the same with our DMT experiences! It is clearly the case that individuals are affected profoundly by their DMT experiences. If we contend that the meat of the DMT experience arises out of random noise, this is like saying that the monkeys tapping away on typewriters would create Shakespearean works nearly every time!

While James Kent and perhaps a few people he knows will see ‘tricked out cartoon hotrods’ and mundane objects, this is clearly not the meat and meaning of most people's DMT experiences, which will often be filled with a sense of incomparable wonder, and awe -- and perhaps, even terror and tears.

This is another excerpt of a DMT experience I found on the internet many years ago:.

"I began to weep like I never have in my life. The sobbing tears of pure, total bliss ripped themselves from me like a jet passing the speed of sound and tearing the sky to shreds. I thought I would fairly break like a twig from such light filling my being. It was more than I could have ever imagined... the beauty, the power. It filled me and sang with every molecule of my body, every facet of my mind, every piece of my soul. All were in perfect harmony, and for a single moment I knew true, undeniable divinity."

It is not so easy to just dismiss these experiences as mere sentimentality, mere ‘noise’. Clearly, the people who experience these sorts of things feel there is meaning in it for them!

Yet it is true, that there are lower levels of the DMT experience, just as it appears there are lower- level dreams, with little import or meaning. Much of these levels are often related to not smoking enough DMT, or perhaps, smoking an inferior extract from a young plant or a shoddily manufactured synthetic form of DMT. It is worth noting that good synthetic DMT is not made easily, and that most of it is of an inferior quality. Terrence McKenna said that in his whole life, he only encountered high quality synthetic DMT twice. Also, much of what people experience is related to the individual who is smoking the DMT, what they are ready to experience, and also how much DMT the person is willing or able to smoke.

There also are people for whom DMT will not work at all. I know there are times when I smoke DMT that nothing significant happens, if anything, and this is a phenomenon well-known to DMT smokers. If people’s concerns are quite petty and mundane, they may well have quite petty or mundane DMT experiences. But give most people 60-100 mg of a high quality DMT extract (and have them smoke it properly) and they will very often have what Shulgin calls a ‘plus four’ experience.


“PLUS FOUR (++++)
A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a 'peak experience', a 'religious experience,' 'divine transformation,' a 'state of Samadhi' and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, and a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered that would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end of the human experiment."


This last point I would disagree with. Even with DMT or 5-MeO-DMT, is this state absolutely repeatable every time? It seems there is a limit to how often this state is ‘handed out’. James Oroc makes this point clear in his book about 5-MeO-DMT, Tryptamine Palace, where in which he states that after many experiences with 5-MeO-DMT, there are definite diminishing returns after you have had some very profound initial experiences.

If every time you took a compound and you had a ‘plus four’ experience, the rarity and preciousness of it would decrease in a sense. Many would have had the experience of smoking DMT and then the experience becoming would have become gradually degraded. This is the point at which one is experiencing collections of mundane objects and various levels of apparently subconscious material.

It is true that the more prepared the person is, the further they will go into the profundity of the states of consciousness that DMT can facilitate. The man who has meditated for thousands of hours contemplating higher consciousness and eating healthy food is going to go far deeper than the man who spends most of his waking time watching the immeasurably lesser lights of TV and eating junk food. Garbage in, garbage out. These beings encountered in DMT states also may also have many human beings to choose from, so why should they interact with you? Many people say they do not experience beings but it’s clear to me that, you need to be quite prepared to meet them. Many individuals just do not meet them and that does not mean they are somehow deficient, or necessarily need to experience them either!

Of course, many human beings are simply just closed-minded. It would be much harder to interact with a human who would not have any conception of the possibility of a being’s independent existence, than one who would tend to accept your existence. Of course, the fast food enthusiast, with what comes out of him often as toxic as what goes into him, is likely to ask why this should matter. It seems there are many who will not display the kind of respect or understanding these beings require in order to appear. Many cultures expend enormous amounts of energy to appease and even please the gods, which is a fundamental aspect of their culture. To meet the ‘gods’ is a privilege, not a right.

James Kent: "As it is, DMT appears to produce amazingly consistent visual patterns in all users. That is a significant fact, and it points to the conclusion that DMT is very simple in its action without a lot of room for variation."

It is actually quite erroneous that DMT appears extraordinarily consistent in its action! This is very far from a ‘significant fact’. Yes, to some degree, there is a certain consistent quality in the ‘DMT visions’, but the variability in different people’s experiences is still quite extreme. Terrence McKenna would say that DMT is idiosyncratic and his version of the ‘machine elves’ is very much overstated in popular culture. Almost never will I hear of people seeing the machine elves that Terrence McKenna talked of and many DMT smokers I know wonder what he was talking of about at all.

As soon as we get into over-simplifying a very complex experiential state, we lose the ball. We must understand that many people (if not most within mainstream academia) consider consciousness to be completely dependent upon the aegis of the human brain. The basic and most evident revelation of DMT is that consciousness lies beyond the brain and that the brain is merely one vessel of consciousness. This is something that many, if not most, among the more conscious and engaged members of the psychedelic community can come to a consensus on. Of course, proof and ‘evidence’ in the realm of consciousness can be elusive, but such factors are only necessary in the absence of gnosis, which in itself is clearly the way forward. Agreement among the esteemed is often better than peer review! Again, we come back to the emotional prejudices of materialists who tend to throw in words around terms like ‘new age fairy tale’ and come across in an attempt to position themselves as being the hard nosed, analytical thinkers, and the others as fluffy, non-empirical, and therefore, not at all valid.

James Kent’s analysis, however, comes off as being stripped back and disregardful of the data. As Clifford Pickover states the awe and intensity of the experience, James Kent retorts that people believe what they want to believe. He calls the experience a ‘perceptual distortion’, when people are commonly reporting a state of extreme perceptual clarity. James Kent says he smoked DMT ‘a number of times’, but personally, I cannot see how anyone could understand something this big until they had smoked DMT at least over 100 times! This is the amount number of times I know it has taken myself and many others to really get their head around it – and we are talking of about high doses of smoked DMT smoked over many years.

James Kent appears to assume a paradigm in which all information arises within the closed system that is the human mind/body brain. This view conflicts with the reports from thousands of people who say that the information they receive is very coherent, and actually is very clearly from outside that apparent circuit. James Kent also deconstructs levels of higher meaning to imply delusions of grandeur and egotism – similar to those of traditional western models of dualistic understanding, in which you are a meat puppet, merely a meat body and a meat brain and, of course, there is nothing grand about that.

The label of ‘delusions of grandeur’ implies psychiatric disturbance and, of course, we are supposed to be disturbed by that possibility. In this day and age, you are not always necessarily free to think what you want to think. I once knew a man who said he sees spirits, and this entailed him having to see a psychiatrist who prescribed him medication. He told me that if he said to his psychiatrist he believes these spirits are ‘real’ phenomena, that would be enough to warrant an increase in psychiatric medication -- , and possibly an involuntary visit to the psychiatric hospital that could extend for many months. He played along with the psychiatrist quite convincingly and was made to agree with the paradigm that states that such spirits are actually not possibly real. The good news is that, partly through using psychedelics, this man was able to come to peace with his visions and claim the visions were valid data, reduce his psychological dependence on psychiatric medication, and come to peace with ‘the system’.

The ultimate issue here is that in actuality the ‘fantastic’ is not often deemed to be credible within traditional western cultural frames. Yet, the fantastic often appears to be the actual truth – stranger than fiction. This is indeed an aspect of the psychedelic revelation. It does not make sense that such ‘fantasticness’ would be generated out of discordancy and noise. That hallucinations occur at all, as people report them, is fantastic enough! Yet, our current paradigm states that such hallucinations cannot ultimately represent valid data and can only represent corrupt data, and that is because the psychiatric reference book of mental illness, DSM-5 V, does not acknowledge the validity of extrasensory phenomena as a possibly valid aspect of human consciousness.

Many have pointed out that the deeper one goes into investigating the reality of quantum physics, the more fantastic the very basis of reality appears. Yet somehow, the other sciences typically stick to the hard and fast, slow and frozen versions of dualistic reality. So much of James Kent's work seems to be trying to conform to a certain level of ‘seriousness’ or ‘credibility’, which seems to be a particularly North American phenomena. Within Asian or Russian cultures, say, there appears to be a lot more room for explorative theory and open-minded research than in the West. Besides, true science requires scientific studies and research to be carried out – not just theory and conjecture.

Within James Kent’s perceptions, all human meaning is stripped away as unnecessary personal subjectivity. His work typifies the ‘mammoth hunting’ approach where all phenomena is assumed to be known and all unknowns are considered undesirable. There are very few human elements within his words, which only communicate of superficial optical phenomena. And the reason why this phenomenon is being generated is said to be because of ‘agonism’ of certain receptors.

The presumptuos nature of James Kent’s views can be clearly viewed in one of his sentences from his book, Psychedelic Information Theory: Shamanism in the Age of Reason:

"In many ways these sacred songs or icaros are attempts to recreate the voice and tone of the pharmacological interaction at various stages of the psychedelic experience."

Well, that is not what the singers of the sacred songs say! He has presented a theory and now wants us to believe the shamans do what he says. I doubt most shamans have any concept of ‘psychedelic experience’. He then goes on to say the shaman is, in fact, only matching the periodic frequency of the hallucinogenic interrupt!

James Kent argues that much of the phenomena people experience in the psychedelic state is due to set and setting, the mindset or mind state and environment in which taking the compound occurs. Again, this perception is not allowing for the possibility that there is incoming data from outside of the brain, which is overwhelmingly what appears to be the case. But to accept the existence of this data requires a complete shift in paradigm for secular western materialists; to understand that we are not alone and that the physical reality is not the only reality. Reading James Kent's words, one is left with the sense that even though he feels he has explained so much, nothing he says essentially helps us to truly enquire into or understand reality, or truly transform our thinking through our relationship with our reality. He wants to us to close the case and believe that his explanation and interpretation is all that we need.
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
GOD
#2 Posted : 12/31/2014 1:55:39 AM
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Dont those proofs also fit for the tooth fairy , santa and the easter bunny ? Except that the people that believe in them havent taken drugs ?

IF Kent is wrong where is the evidence ? Where are the proofs and novel ideas from where some people claim to go to on DMT trips ? IF someone can do it they would get about 1 million $ as there are several public chalanges to do it . For example ---- > http://web.randi.org/the...on-dollar-challenge.html

I am autism spectum ........ please dont burn me at the stake for being honest .
 
chocobeastie
#3 Posted : 12/31/2014 2:04:38 AM

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Kent is not "wrong", he is just trying to explain something a lot more mysterious, with many more variables than he says that there is - which is what I hope I make clear.

Have you smoked DMT before? It generally isn't trying to tell you stuff that is very comprehensible!

I have heard of people who smoke DMT to predict the stock market very successfully
Who needs Randi's prize money when you can do that?

Skeptics will be skeptics, I don't think grabbing the 1 million bucks is going to be that easy to do, especially when you are just one person smoking DMT!
 
GOD
#4 Posted : 12/31/2014 2:22:14 AM
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I stated my DMT experience smokeing 5 Meo-DMT in 1974 .

My opinion ---- >

What you are saying is subjective . Mixed with things like " If you cant prove santa doesnt exist then he might exist " . And ...... " My big brother says so it must be true " .

Where is proof ?

Do you see the paralels between what you are saying and conspiracy theorys ?



I am autism spectum ........ please dont burn me at the stake for being honest .
 
chocobeastie
#5 Posted : 12/31/2014 2:39:21 AM

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Smoke nn,DMT 100 times and then tell me you still believe proof is necessary!

I don't think it takes proof, it takes rationality and personal experience to understand these things.

Proof is normally considered to be a physical evidence or something of the sort, but in this case, just eating the pudding is good enough proof for a lot of people.
 
rootsie
#6 Posted : 12/31/2014 3:31:48 AM

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Haters gonna hate.

More pudding, please!

Thumbs up
Approach it and there is no beginning; follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it, at ease in your own life.

-lao tze

Enjoy the Mystery!
rootsie
 
universecannon
#7 Posted : 12/31/2014 3:43:59 AM



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GOD wrote:
Dont those proofs also fit for the tooth fairy , santa and the easter bunny ? Except that the people that believe in them havent taken drugs ?

IF Kent is wrong where is the evidence ? Where are the proofs and novel ideas from where some people claim to go to on DMT trips ? IF someone can do it they would get about 1 million $ as there are several public chalanges to do it . For example ---- > http://web.randi.org/the...on-dollar-challenge.html



Default to benzyme: "Nothing is ever proven". Pulling in the word proof into these conversations is just going to confuse matters. Very happy

(Disclaimer: I haven't read the entire op.)

I think this is all totally besides the point. What proof WOULD there be if we were accessing some sort of non-local level of reality? Do people expect us to bring back some hyperspace plasma for all to behold? If you're talking about novel ideas, countless people attribute creative breakthroughs to altered states of consciousness, dreams, and especially psychedelic experiences. There is a number of possible explanations for this, and it may be a mix instead of one or the other. Who knows.

There are a number of issues about Randi and his "1 million dollar challenge", and many reports of him being far less than honest himself. I speak about some in this thread (my posts aren't about homeopathy just fyi) https://www.dmt-nexus.me...spx?g=posts&t=56137.

Anywho I've always felt that if James Kent really thinks DMT looses it's "magic" over time, and that hyperspace is no more surprising or fascinating than seeing something when you rub your closed eye lids with your fingers, then there is no point in putting much if any weight on anything he says regarding the psychedelic experience.



<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"
 
Global
#8 Posted : 12/31/2014 2:19:00 PM

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Kent's theory only holds any kind of weight to the extent that he talks about entopic hallucinations. These are the phosphene-like hallucinations of cobwebs, lattices, DNA, etc...He believes what separates entopic hallucinations from eidetic ones (photo-realistic) is the amount of neurological feedback involved. For anyone who has had a breakthrough DMT experience, it is astoundingly obvious that these two very different kinds of hallucinations have very little to do with each other. They may be made up of similar geometric building blocks in the same ways that human beings and sand are both made up of atoms, but beyond that, the two don't have very much to do with each other in a meaningful way. There have been numerous accounts of encountering religious deities that one had not been previously familiar with, and are verified to be contextually significant. I don't see how a visual feedback loop could create such things. They can talk to you and describe what's going on in the scene you find yourself in, even though you could never generate such an accurate description of what's going on. They have information you do not. I find it unlikely Kent has had an experience of such an order.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein

"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead

"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
 
Felnik
#9 Posted : 12/31/2014 2:44:20 PM

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imagine picking up a violin , plucking a couple strings then writing a thesis on music.


The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
Arthur C. Clarke


http://vimeo.com/32001208
 
steppa
#10 Posted : 1/6/2015 10:17:13 AM

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chocobeastie wrote:
Smoke nn,DMT 100 times and then tell me you still believe proof is necessary!


I still believe that proof is necessary!

Quote:
I don't think it takes proof, it takes rationality and personal experience to understand these things.


Kent's case sounds really rational to me.

Quote:
just eating the pudding is good enough proof for a lot of people.


This is often the case for a lot of people. And often a lot of people are fooled or fooling themselves.

I don't think that we can be sure that he ISN'T right. And even after so many journeys...I'm still convinced that everything I percieve when journeying is entirely made up by my fantastic brain.

Of course...it FEELS magical. But that's about it...feeling and interpretation. Many people on here interpret a bit too much into this for my personal taste.
Everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end.
 
Chan
#11 Posted : 1/6/2015 11:42:34 AM

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I enjoyed Kent's book a lot, but by the time he got to entities etc, he was basically proposing a modified version of the monkeys typing Shakespeare:

Quote:
From a statistical analysis we can assume that nonlinear psychedelic information emerges into consciousness at speeds far greater than linear information, generating a large pool of abstract ideas in a very short period of time.


As Wittgenstein famously said, whereof one cannot speak, one should remain silent.

Leaving hyperspace aside, we have a whole heap of stuff in this world which does not fit easily into the linear-reductionist blender (e.g. bumble-bees shouldn't be able to fly) and if anybody actually is waiting with baited breath for a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, well, don't suffocate yourself...

Jung's model of the Collective Unconscious is to me, the most plausible candidate for the likely location of hyperspace. How and why it even exists at all, well, surely it's nothing more than spent energy, as dark matter, folded into n-dimensions Big grin

More interesting still is why those sneaky plants were cooking up neurotransmitters and tryptamines long before we even turned up to try them...the entire biosphere has been tripping balls for a very long time indeed, and maybe we are just the discarnate (i.e. non-plant) entities hallucinated by some heavily loaded plants!

“I sometimes marvel at how far I’ve come - blissful, even, in the knowledge that I am slowly becoming a well-evolved human being - only to have the illusion shattered by an episode of bad behaviour that contradicts the new and reinforces the old. At these junctures of self-reflection, I ask the question: “are all my years of hard work unraveling before my eyes, or am I just having an episode?” For the sake of personal growth and the pursuit of equanimity, I choose the latter and accept that, on this journey of evolution, I may not encounter just one bad day, but a group of many.”
― B.G. Bowers

 
steppa
#12 Posted : 1/6/2015 1:17:34 PM

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chocobeastie wrote:

I have heard of people who smoke DMT to predict the stock market very successfully


May they have predicted it successfully without having smoked DMT?

GOD wrote:
What you are saying is subjective . " If you cant prove santa doesnt exist then he might exist "


This might be a bit exaggerated. But basically I'm with GOD here.

Everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end.
 
downwardsfromzero
#13 Posted : 1/6/2015 8:35:50 PM

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That oft-quoted thing about the bumble bees - I'm inclined to think the originator(s) got their maths wrong. Has anyone even checked their workings? I certainly haven't... also I find it difficult to comment definitively on the subjective experiences of others.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
SKA
#14 Posted : 1/6/2015 10:12:38 PM
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Spiritofspice wrote:
chocobeastie wrote:
Kent is not "wrong", he is just trying to explain something a lot more mysterious, with many more variables than he says that there is - which is what I hope I make clear.

Have you smoked DMT before? It generally isn't trying to tell you stuff that is very comprehensible!

I have heard of people who smoke DMT to predict the stock market very successfully
Who needs Randi's prize money when you can do that?

Skeptics will be skeptics, I don't think grabbing the 1 million bucks is going to be that easy to do, especially when you are just one person smoking DMT!


Sorcery and DMT is a dangerous game if you go in with a motive for crap like the stock market it's going to come back on your friend 3 fold.

Using DMT for greed and selfishness in that way is an evil thing if your friend was using DMT to predict the future to benefit somebody else then that is different.
If he is taking advantage he will get burnt.


Amen! If you go into the DMT realm with impure intentions you will be properly punished for your transgressions there. If you intend any harm on anyone, in the DMT realm that very same harm will be done to you 1000fold. You will be on the receiving end of your own impure or even wicked intentions.
This is how you learn they are wrong and impure and need to be cleansed out of you.

 
downwardsfromzero
#15 Posted : 1/6/2015 10:46:44 PM

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You're starting to sound a bit puritanical...




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
SKA
#16 Posted : 1/7/2015 3:55:06 PM
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downwardsfromzero wrote:
You're starting to sound a bit puritanical...



So you'd go into hyperspace, meet entities who have mindshattering knowledge and abilities
and you ask them....advice for the stockmarket?

It would seem you fail to understand the true nature of the riches that DMT gives you access to.
Call me puritanical, old fashioned...whatever, but though I too like the prospect of becomming
a billionaire I realise that having billions in possessions and in money savings is really quite useless and worthless if it can not make you happy.

So I skip money all together and focus on my level of happiness. There are these deep emotional
problems that no amount of money can save you from: Missing real friends, missing real love, feeling purposeless, fear of death, fear of the impairments of old age, missing honoust people around you, not being able to get over that old broken heart, the dilemma trying to balance a sense of adventure and a sense of security in your life, missing the safeguarded feeling of a family structure around you, fear of war and societal breakdown.


All these fears and grievances are intense burdains. The more we carry of these, the less we get to enjoy the moment we live in, even if its a wonderfull moment.



To be able to cast off and digest these burdains and to continue on in life unburdained and able to enjoy the joys of life as they pass by again..... That is a treasure of unsurpassed worth.
To be able to free yourself from these awefull burdains...Now THAT is true richness.

DMT provides a very creative and effective way to untie these binds and become unburdained again.
Therefor I find DMT an immeasurable treasure that far surpasses ANY amount of money I could possibly earn on the stock market in value. Not that such money wouldnt be welcome in my life:
It's just that to be spiritually free and unburdained seems to be a priority by far.
 
steppa
#17 Posted : 1/7/2015 4:53:11 PM

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SKA wrote:

meet entities who have mindshattering knowledge


What knowledge? Knowledge about what?
Everything is always okay in the end, if it's not, then it's not the end.
 
hug46
#18 Posted : 1/7/2015 5:15:05 PM

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SKA wrote:

It's just that to be spiritually free and unburdained seems to be a priority by far.


What if the person that was playing the stock market was already undurdened? Maybe they wanted a bit of extra cash to help themselves enjoy their spiritual freedom.

Steppa wrote:
What knowledge? Knowledge about what?


+1
 
downwardsfromzero
#19 Posted : 1/8/2015 1:37:15 AM

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hug46 wrote:
SKA wrote:

It's just that to be spiritually free and unburdained seems to be a priority by far.


What if the person that was playing the stock market was already un[b]urdened? Maybe they wanted a bit of extra cash to help themselves enjoy their spiritual freedom.

[...]

This.

Personally, I can thank hyperspatial beings or an ordinary garden gnome for all the riches I've won on the stockmarket.



I've never played the stockmarkets.

I once tried asking a mushroom entity for the upcoming lottery numbers but ended up pissing on my bedroom floor instead.

But indeed monies won on the stockmarkets have a tendency to be ultimately rooted in the misery of countless thousands of people and the despoilation of our natural environment.




“There is a way of manipulating matter and energy so as to produce what modern scientists call 'a field of force'. The field acts on the observer and puts him in a privileged position vis-à-vis the universe. From this position he has access to the realities which are ordinarily hidden from us by time and space, matter and energy. This is what we call the Great Work."
― Jacques Bergier, quoting Fulcanelli
 
SKA
#20 Posted : 1/8/2015 7:04:59 AM
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hug46 wrote:
SKA wrote:

It's just that to be spiritually free and unburdained seems to be a priority by far.


What if the person that was playing the stock market was already undurdened? Maybe they wanted a bit of extra cash to help themselves enjoy their spiritual freedom.

Steppa wrote:
What knowledge? Knowledge about what?


+1



Why would you need cash to enjoy your spiritual freedom? I think part of the liberty attainable
through the use of psychedelics is to find happiness that lasts. Happiness that isn't dependant
on wether you have only a little cash or alot. Real happiness. Being happy with the life you live.


Afterall the joy from spending tons of money only lasts so long, before it wanes and makes
way for new desires and cravings. That fleeting pleasure isn't happiness.


Have you not noticed how many rich people are absolutely miserable? Lonely? Bored? Malcontent?
And have you not noticed how many painfully poor people manage to be genuinely happy?




And to answer your question "What knowledge?"...
I have had entities show me a hollow interrior of my body and how old experiences had gotten
clogged up inside, hardened. Like cholesterol on the inside of veins. It was closing me off
for new experiences. The entitiy proceeded to scrape the inside clean and clear out those barriers.
It taught me not to cling to old experiences or this would happen again.

It showed me how the hyperspace world is essentially no different from the material realm, except that this type of "matter/energy" was vibrating at much higher frequencies. It showed me the many layers of existance and how they are unified. Entities gave me deep insights inside my self beyond my Ego and it's usual censorship. Showing me the true intentions and consequences of my behaviours.

I would say that knowledge is pretty profound.
To ask for winning lotery numbers or profitable stocks seems trivial to me in compairison.
Seems you still fail to realise on a deep level that money does not equal happiness.
What good are billions of dollars when you're still miserable, lonely, fearfull,
depressed and angry all the time?
 
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