Hi everyone! I apologize in advance if this question has been addressed before, but here we go:

I plan to use HCL and phosphoric acid for my A/B extraction. How would I substitue phosphoric acid for vinegar following this tek?

Cheers

Simple, use a ph meter.

Hello

I guess I'm not sure why you need two different acids for that tek. I briefly looked through it and the only step I saw that required acid was the initial acidification of the rootbark (with vinegar).

But I am pretty sure that using phosphoric acid to acidify the bark would be fine. You will want to think about how much acid you should use though. The tek mentions using 60 mL of vinegar (which is 5% acetic acid if I'm remembering right). Since phosphoric acid is a stronger acid, and yours is probably more concentrated than 5%, you'll want to use a smaller amount of acid.

I've never used phosphoric acid before, but I've always use HCl for my acid soaks and it always comes out fine. I prepare my acid solution by very slowly adding HCl to dH2O until the pH is ~4 (I've seen varying statements on what the pH should be, but most people seem to use a pH between 3 and 5). I would prepare it similarly if I were going to substitute phosphoric acid.

But like I said, I haven't used phosphoric acid for extractions and haven't heard much about it being done, so I would definitely do a quick search to make sure it's been done successfully before you do it. Is there any reason you want to use phosphoric acid rather than the HCl you have? HCl has been used countless times for acid soaks and is tried and true

Something about the vinegar smell lets me know I'm really getting
the job done. But vinegar is all I've ever known too.

First of all...it is NOT an A/B extraction. (it's an ATB)
Second...you only need ONE type of acid to lower the pH...it's your choice which one. (just get to pH4 or lower)
Third...if you use anything other than the Tek states...you will need a pH meter or Litmus paper to check how much to use (probably only a few drops)
Fourth...if you've never extracted before...why are you complicating things before you've even started? Your question proves that you know very little.

...Just follow the recipe...it was designed for newbies so they don't have to think/worry about anything. Then when you are more confident of what you are doing...you can move on to other things.

Thanks for the pointers. Yeah, I don't know why I felt I should use a different acid rather than follow the tek and go from there. Cheers!

Also, not sure where I got the idea I needed two acids :/

a pH meter only tells part of the story, when dealing with polyprotic acids like phosphoric acid, and the dicarboxylic acids, as they form various complexed salts...
they tend to complicate things.. some of those acids leave a hygroscopic mess, even after recrystallization (exposure to air will do that).

fumaric acid is an exception. fumarate salts seem to hold their resolution well, which is why many use it in A/B/A

You guys are really overcomplicating things imo. It's wonderful to get to know the workings of an extraction once you already got the hang of it and learned your chemistry... But for practical purposes in DMT extractions there's no need at all for pH meter, neither using different kinds of acid or worrying about any of this. DMT is already in salt form naturally in the plant, the plant itself is acidic, which means even if there isnt any acid added the alkaloids will dissolve in the water.

Adding acid might help break down a bit more the bark in theory, but if your bark is powdered, it shouldnt make a big difference. You could add, say, 20ml vinegar, or 200ml vinegar, when boiling 100g bark, and either way your yields should be pretty much the same ime.

And then getting stuff like phosphoric acid or hcl, there's really no need, you're gonna spend unnecessary money for something that will present no advantage over the lemon or vinegar that is already in your kitchen (and HCl is more dangerous to work with, though if its clean and you follow safety precautions it should be fine)

And when adding a base, just add enough so the whole thing is black, that's like a pH meter in and of itself.

Good stuff too, thanks. I just happen to have some HCL available (and phosphoric for that matter), so I figured I could use one of these instead. I also have 30% caustic soda (I'm assuming it would need to be diluted some more?) available as well.

I just picked a tek that looked easy to follow. Being a complete noob with this particular extraction, I wasn't sure how the bark would react with different chemicals.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! Smart minds here

You should get 100% lye. But I imagine the 30 would work. Just check what the other 70 is

I'll just get lye and follow the tek for the first run through. Then I'll experiment with different acids and compare extraction yields. But for the first trial, I'll just follow the tek

Just as a question...Would the only issue of an acid being something could precipitate out?
i.e. there is a counter cation that might precipitate the conjugate base of the acid?

Although the solution would still be acidic....

I am just curious. I stick with vinegar, but in the case of "bad" acids what would be the parameters of such an acid?

monoprotic acids keep it simple, one pKa.
it's not so much a problem with A/B, but with A/B/A

What do you mean by A/B/A? Maybe a mini A/B?

A/B/A being an additional redisolve in acid step?

Curious on what you mean with this too.

acid/base/salt with acid

Ahh. I gotcha.

Thanks for answering that. It is good to know worst case. I try to keep it simple with vinegar. Good ol' tasty vinegar.