Right,

I've got a friend, and the basics about him are this:

He suffers from what seems to be clinical depression of some form, complete apathy about life combined with massive abandonment issues. The problem is that he isn't able to understand it as depression. His view is "it's shit to be alive so why wouldn't I feel bad."

In fact, that kind of distills his problem, he simply doesn't like being alive. He went through a period of doing speed for 4 days a week with massive amounts of k and mdma, while not paying any rent and working shift work to cover expenses.

Then he had a meltdown last summer and managed to recognise that he should stop taking any drugs. This was something none of us had managed to get him to see, if you try and tell him anything it only forces him away and makes him worse. He got together with a straight edge girl, pretty much entirely to achieve this goal.The problem is that this girl has serious issues of her own, relating to trust, self-confidence etc etc. The situation has got to the point where they are co-dependent, with him living with her and not working, her supporting him financially.

He's completely cut out all of his old circle of friends, he won't respond to texts or calls and when I do get the odd chance to see him (by going to see a third person who lives with them), I can't speak to him freely because she's there. The guy he lives with barely sees him, he sits in his room and sulks for days. He's never ever liked psychs, the 2cs make him paranoid and irritable and he would never go for acid, he thinks it would send him insane. I managed to sneak 5 minutes with him the other day and I laid it on the line for him and told him that the situation has to change, he has to get a job, to get some money in, leave the house and find some perspective.

And I mentioned to him that he should take ayahuasca. He responded with something that completely surprised me --> he agreed. I honestly believe that ayahuasca is the only thing that will help him, since as I said earlier he's incapable of recognising that he needs any kind of professional help. I reckon that a guided aya trip with me to help him could really help.

The problem is that since that moment I can't get hold of him, again. Because he's so consumed by apathy it's not something he would even begin to sort out himself. Because I don't have any opportunity to talk to him further I can't gauge his true opinion on it.

Do I take the initiative and prepare aya for him, and command him to come to my house to do it (I now live quite a treck from him and timing at my house is limited)? I can't turn up at his house with it because of his gf. How do I play it with her, she's straight edge remember. What if I take the initiative and prepare it all for him, get him to do it somehow and he reacts really badly? Then I've essentially forced on him something that hasn't helped at all and my guilt would be massive.

Do I sit back powerless and hope that he has the intelligence to sort himself out of this? His friends have attempted to rally round him and he's responded by cutting them out.

The worst part of all of this is that he admitted to me during his meltdown that he'll commit suicide when he's ready to. Before he mentioned that to me I'd seen huge parallels between him and a figure from The Bridge. Without me even saying anything he said it'd be off a bridge.

I mean, there are more finer details in all of this as well but that's the broad story. There's no way whatsoever that he'll be proactive in this. It's getting to the point where I'm getting really quite worried.

I know you guys'll put some new perspectives on it.

MZ

jesus! that sounds like quite the issue...aya sounds like it could be a good idea..but it should be his choice..because you really dont want to have that on your hands..another idea may be mescaline..it makes you feel good and it also gives you a new perspective..a happy one..the only problem though is that aya would be more powerful in that regard...its a tough one dude..but try bringing it up to him...tell him you have prepared it..and you wanted to see if he would like it..but tell him what the purpose would be..

tell him that this is to give you a positive perspective on life..make those YOUR intentions..and then have him agree to your intentions..and that will SET the experience..and thats all you can do..and during the experience..just let him go through it..and be more of like a spectator than a guide..if he wants something just tell him he can ask for it and you will do your best to help him with it..

good luck to you and your friend

Wow that is a tough one. My first thoughts, given the situation with his straight girlfriend, were for him to take aya in a more controlled environment- a reputable shamanic group session. I've never been to one of these, but to me it seems like it would appear a lot less threatening to his girlfriend- it could look more like "kooky, harmless new-age spiritual group therapy" to her rather than "evil druggy ex-friends dragging him down further". I expect it would be easy to find out who runs reputable sessions on the ayahuasca forums? I'm guessing it wouldn't be cheap compared to brewing your own, but it could well be a one-off if the first session goes well and you are then trusted to continue working with him with your own brew.

Check out my general depression thread too. I'd say DEFINITELY buy him a little present of "Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy" by David D. Burns. It's dirt cheap second hand from Amazon. Post it to him with a nice letter if you feel like you can't go round there for a while.

Also, there could be the option of supplements- Acolon_5 has had success with microdosing of caapi- see the 'aya supplements' thread. Aya is a big step and some people need time to feel comfortable with the idea. As Jorkest said, mescaline could be good- a little experimentation with cactus chips may help too. In Peru it is used in low quantities as an antidepressant (I would guess we're talking about 5g of t.peruvianus here). The 'naturalness' of these options would definitely help in the eyes of his girlfriend. Play down the visionary element- with peruvianus it's not really even apparent until you get into the 25g+ range anyway.

You say that she has issues too. I think, if she were a part of this, then it could help them both. In any case they rely on each other already, and aya is such a life-changing experience that it would be really nice for them to heal together. And he can't really go off taking aya behind her back when they depend on each other so much.

I would say that (knowing what I know now) that maybe you should speak with her. Be as unconfrontational as possible, even if provoked, and explain that despite your differences, you both have one thing in common- that you both care very deeply about your friend, and you both want him to get better. Bear in mind that she is very wary of chemicals, so don't mention them at all, other than to say that you and your friends tried to get him to stop taking drugs before but he wouldn't listen until he realised himself that he had a problem. Then say that you would like to help him get better. The book is the first step in this. Maybe you could offer to help him find work too. And get him out and about doing things that won't put him near the temptation of the drugs he used to abuse- stuff like the park etc- this is really important for a depressed person I think. Then maybe you will be able to change her view of you (and be very careful to make sure nothing happens that would ruin your hard work in doing so). Tell her that you would like to persuade him to ask his doctor to assign him to a psychologist too for therapy (it's free where you live if I remember correctly). I know you say he's against psychology, but all you have to say is "Are you happy how you are now" and when you get the answer "no", then explain to him that it's free and harmless.

Later on (as this may be a bit much for her to handle in one go) maybe start to talk about how ayawaska cures people of depression and addictive behaviour. It might be better if this information filters to her through him. The more evidence you can find the better- maybe find the relevent scientific papers on here and print them out (as long as they don't contain any alarming bits!).

I'm no expert, but that's what I'd do. Good luck

I have dealt with depression my entire life and at times been very down even suicidal.Its hard for someone who has never been depressed to understand.

Your friend might not respond to your help right away but give it time.All you can do is plant seeds and hope that they grow in him.I know when i felt really depressed i didnt want to hear any of it from friends and family.It even annoyed me sometimes.Im just saying dont be too pushy or forceful with your help.Just do what you are doing by suggesting he try ayahuasca,and give him info or books that might help.Send him love and kind thoughts.Thats all you can really do.

Dont try to change his life he has to do that himself.I now know that i went through that hell for a reason and im better for it , even though it nearly killed me.I know it must be hard to watch your friend in this state but all you can do is be supportive and offer your help.He is going through a process and he has choices to make.No one can do it for him.

I hope the best for your friend.Much Love.

Hey man. I certainly don't have an answer for you, but I can relate. I have a friend in a similar situation. My friend too clearly has some clinical depression issues and got really heavy in opiates, then MDMA, then cocaine. He would disappear from our lives (anyone who knew and cared about him) for days at a time. On and on the story goes... He goes someplace remote and tropical for work every year (for 3 or 4 months), and usually comes back in a MUCH better state of mind, but certainly not healed.

The thing is that there is nothing you can really do or say to change what your friend is going through. All you can do is to be there to support him, and don't ever give up and abandon him. MOST people get to a point with friends (or even family) like this where they just throw their hands in the air and say "I've done all I can do!" Never, ever, ever do that. You may feel like you're beating your head against a brick wall, but the truth is you ARE helping, simply by being there and being his friend. If your friend gets to the point of a decision on suicide, and he has any need to talk to someone before acting, he is ONLY going to turn to someone he can trust, and he knows will not judge or be confrontational. The only way you can be THAT person is to just be his friend. Don't push him into anything or judge him, or criticize his life in any way. I'm not saying to ignore the issue, but just don't make him feel like you are criticizing him. I hope that makes sense...

I think Aya would be a huge step. I'm not sure it would be the best solution for someone in that deep of a depression unless he was 99% on board with the idea as well. Your intent is not necessarily going to be his intent... Know what I mean? As others have suggested, maybe something insightful, but less deep (psilocybin, mescaline, LSD) in a proper dose would be a better first step.

Something I would also suggest is a non-chemical healing option. There are many excellent camps that you could research for your friend that are excellent for this type of condition. Perhaps he and his girl friend could even participate in one together. It's important to find a GOOD one though, and not some greedy, capitalistic healing camps that are merely after your dollar. The good ones do not charge you anything beyond any food or supplies you might need. I know that there is at least one excellent one in Hawaii. I have another friend that completely turned his life around via this route. I can ask him for more information if you think this might be an option. I think the point of these camps (I have never participated myself, but would like to), is to allow introspection and healing w/o the use of any drugs. They are a slower process than a smack in the back of the brain with an Ayahuasca vine, but might be more appropriate in your friend's case. Not to mention it would probably be much more palatable by his girl, who sounds lke she could use some healing as well.

You might want to research this a bit more, and bring it up to them in the form of a nice, rustic, tropical vacation, away from the chaos of their lives, and then get into the healing part, gently. Let him know that you will be here at home to take care of anything he's worried about leaving behind, etc. Let him head off on this trip as care free as possible.

Lastly - I'm sure you know this, but if he does go the rout of an MAOI of any sort, like Aya, please make sure you know if he is on any medications. Especially SSRI's. These can be very, very, dangerous when mixed with MAOI's.

Sorry for all the rambling, but I hope I offered some help.

Oh, I just thought of one additional thing. Perhaps just signing the three of you up for a meditation, or Yoga class would be a simple, effective first step. This something easy, fun and inexpensive that you could all do together.

You're a good man Zigg! Keep us posted.
-idt

I say go get him and drive him to your place. Prepare it and have it ready for him and maybe some to smoke. If this fails, find his family and maybe he needs real inpatient help. I doubt this will fail. Maybe he will be able to deal with this problems, but again maybe he needs to be committed?

well he could drink aya and loose his mind and kill himself during his aya session and you with him. I did ceremony with a guy once who went down to the amazon to work with a shaman. he had serious depression and freaked out during a session and thought he had snakes in his stomache so he went out into the river with a knife and gutted himself... this was when he was no longer high as well... his freinds had to take him all the way back to town to see a doctor and he lived... the shaman and the tour guide didnt want to help him because they didnt want to be liable...
SWIMS been in a lot of aya sessions... swims seen people black out, freak out, attack people... ect...
even with a trained shaman around it can get freaky... and in those moments you want a real shaman around as well as maybe a few strong guys to subdue some one whos attacking a 70 year old woman whos seeking to speak with gaia...

So let me ask you this... what makes you feel like you can help him while hes going through with his healing?
if you have that self confidence and its based on some thing real... do it... figure out a way to help the guy give him aya and then see what happens... the shipibo will at times, when there is a member of their village causing problems, tie some one up and force them to drink... and do healing on the retch... some may think this is terrible! but we tie people up in a psyche ward ( we do it to countless millions every years im sure) and forcably inject them with antipscyhotics and sedatives... attivan, resperdol ect...

and thats the other thing... if you dont feel like you can help him if the going gets rough and you dont know any shamans or ayahausceros that can help and hes not going to go to peru with you ( mayeb a fun idea for him whats he got to loose ever ask him?) then if he tells you hes going to kill himself and hes isolating like that you can make a call of concern to a mental health agency and they can come out and evaluate him and see whether or not he needs to be either voluntarily or involuntarily in a psych ward for a little bit... he may hate you for it but it might save his life if he gets onthe right medications.

if hes been abusing meth and e and K theres a strong possibility that hes really burned out his brain. meth and E especially combined or abused regularly can actually create in a healthy brain schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia... at the least after taking meth and e for a long time the ability to feel joy and happiness are immensely declined, youve burnt out your neuro chemistry and it may never feel good again or the same... people often sink deeper into addiction at that point to feel good from the drugs or they find ways to push themselves and take herbs and things to help repair the damage they have done... soem get into adrenaline sports just to feel any kinda of rush. this is all first year psychopharmacology shit... get a text book if you dont believe me.
but seriously... ive seen many people at the end of their rope forced into a psyche ward and put on meds and they come out of it much healtheir... ive also seen it traumatize people who were not ready or willing to get help.
call up a local metnal health group, the county one and find out whats nessecary to do a show of concern and have some one come and check him out if hes talking about suicide. thats what my brother does for a living he goes out and meets with people and sees if they need help or if they are ok or just need to talk or need dirrection to seek help on their own.

Personally, I wouldn't want to oversee something like this unless I myself was in a strong enough state to combat and reverse negative energies/entities attached to his life force. Smoking DMT makes us aware that there are infinite amounts of things we do not see and the last thing I would want to happen is for this release of energy to attach to myself. While I think the idea is right, something like this should only be done under proper conditions.

Guys, I just wanted to say a huge thanks for your perspectives. I don't have time to respond at the moment but I will. I reckon I know what approach I'm going to take as a result of your comments, I'll edit this with my plan when I get a chance.

sometimes if people are really messed up you can't intent to change them or make them see the light. They have to hit rock bottom on their own, if you help them it'll be paralell to that self-process.

saddly hitting rock bottom for some can mean successful suicide. if some one has severe acute depression its not a matter of choice as to whether or not they see the light. their brain chemistry is whats in control so to speak. intervention on a medical level is often very necessary.

+1

Right, as I said, thanks guys.

I've come to the conclusion that introducing him to aya (or mesc) is probably not the way forward right now. I'm not a shaman, and I don't have the funds or connections to do this properly, and like you said LLB, I don't want it to go violently wrong, he's got a very severe temper on him. Having said that, I don't think it would, but my main concern is psychological, even after the experience. Even if he personally has a good view of aya, it's plain that psychs and him don't mix well. I reckon that's more to do with the way his brain is wired than “the chemicals” themselves.

Talking to her is also out of the question because I simply don't know her and I'm not in a position to be up front with her about the whole thing. If it comes to it I might be forced to, but I'm well aware of what you said Pinche about driving him away (and potentially losing all chances to help him). When he was staying awake for days on end I was forced to take the soft approach. Firstly because I'm a libertarian and I didn't want to be a hypocrite and secondly because he is so strong headed.

In the end it took a drugs meltdown – them not working after several days of him being awake, him angry and self-loathing, and me luckily being around to lay it on the line for him and say that these things were meant to make you feel good, as well as actually tell him how scary the bitterness I saw in him was. But even so, it was all dictated ultimately by his own desire to stop. I reckon even if I can do 1% that's better than nothing, but at the end of the day there's only so much that someone else can do. We're trying to engineer natural points in his life to make him think, I.e the guy we know who lives with him is moving out (partially because he can't take the pressure cooker), partially because a change like that may well kick start some kind of recovery.

I simply can't afford to take him anywhere and he wouldn't go either. The whole problem in all of this is his complete reluctance to accept that he has a problem. His apathy is so deep that he can't even conceive of living in a different way. I think that this world view is something that can't be easily 'cured', I think it can only be managed. I think that entheogens can play a role in this, but baby steps.



This is the answer I think. My plan; buy that book for myself and make that brew 'for myself'. I'm going to take advantage of any situation I can do lend him that book – with the explanation that it's something I've been using, and give him the opportunity to use the 'remainder' of my brew. Not because 'he has a problem' or because I've orchestrated something against him and am worried about him, but quite simply because it's something I would recommend to anyone (like a dream herb for example).

If I can't get to see him I'll find another way for this to be mentioned to him 'in passing' to prick his ears up that there's a way he can experience a tiny bit of aya's benefits without taking the plunge for a full experience.

I think a low dose of mescaline is for the future when things start to pick up for him. The decision for aya has to come from him and him alone I think.

Thanks again for all the feedback and love, any other thoughts are appreciated, I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

MZ

No. For him to do that would take him accepting that he has a problem. Like I said, the approach he takes is not 'I have a problem, what can I do about it', it's 'the problem is existence itself so how can anything help.' Also there's no way he could afford it. He lives on state benefits and handouts from his gf - that's more or less £50 a week.

Any update, I am curious how your friend is doing. Perhaps you can send him hear to read. There are many things here to help those in need.

Hey dude, situation is this; I've managed to see him once. I went for the jugular with a discussion of aya and the b.caapi microdosing and he responded quite well, we managed to have quite an open convo about it.

I said that I didn't want to give him aya because it would give me more control over the direction of his life than either him or me would want. I also said that I felt he was too apathetic to seek it out himself. His view was that it would come to him when the time was right.

I pointed out the possibility of me sorting it out and presenting it to him and he said that he was still at a point in his life where he could refuse it. It turns out (and this really surprised me) that his gf did aya in south america and is really against him doing it - this includes microdosing apparently!

I need to find out more information about what actually happened to her when she did it, I reckon it was just ridiculously intense and overwhelming (because as I said she does no chems at all). I reckon she entered into it knowing very little about it because she was in the right place with the right people.

Next port of call is engineering a conversation with her to try and break down her prejudices against even microdosing.

As a side point, he now recognises the importance of working a few shifts just to get out of the house which is really good and came completely from himself. Which probably proves that we are the only ones who can help ourselves.

(He hates the concept of internet forums)

One of the best, safest and uncontroversial remedies for depressive dissorders is physical activity. If you would get him to, as a sort of hollidayvacation, walk around for a few days in a beautifull environment like a forest or something, then after two or three days he'l be more open. That would be a good moment to see if he is open for ayahuasca.

Nothing makes you so happy to be alive as thinking you are going to die.

Give him a huge dose of Ayahuasca.

Perhaps, as I have seen suggested somewhere else recently - the key is to use Aya (or similar) to 'dislodge' and expose aspects of a person to themselves, which could then be dealt with using psychotherapy/councelling. However, I think psychotherapy may not be for everyone. I also think there needs to be shift in perspective, as the use of Aya and other entheogens may not be compatible with traditional schools of psychotherapy. Perhaps we need a new school of entheogen-based therapy? (would this be classed as shamanism???)

Indeed!