Whenever i feel like i want to vomit, after having done so i, more often than not, feel better. Whether it is part of a psychedelic experience or not. I would imagine the relief of evacuating your stomach after feeling a bit rough would be accentuated by being in a psychedelic state. The same goes for taking a dump.



Quite a few people vomit after taking heroin, immediately feel better and get on with their nod. Does that mean that opiates expel toxic things that have been building up over the years?

I think if you before were saying people should stop trying to impose their views, shouldn't you do the same and not tell others to 'stop thinking' anything, specially if the alternative is just an opinion and not a fact? (also, I dont think anyone here was arguing that purging is always only the body thinking aya/psychedelics are poison, but rather that it's one possibility at least in some cases)

BTW, I've seen first-hand shamans vomiting too, I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be.

..unfortunately i think you've misread what i actually said there..
(though, in hasty typing, meant in that quote MAO-I % )

first, if we're meant to be technical, we need to understand the term 'toxin' here..again, like MAO inhibition, it's not 'yes/no'..some things are less toxic than others..it's a dosage related scale..reported LD 50s, etc

but, what i suggested speculatively is that harmine at a certain point becomes 'a potential' toxin to the system, due to what it does to the system..i.e. allow mono-amines to enter the bloodstream..

above certain dosages of harmalas is physically unpleasant for most, if not all, people..diet or not..at a lower level than tryptamines


..sure, but 'cleansing' the 'nasty stuff' happens in a variety of ways..

i'm not 'thinking' in any singular way.. but MAOIs allow amines from the gut into the system..how long they've been there is not the point..but how did they get there?

Sorry if this is off topic from the current discussion

I'm willing to admit that I was not correct, it would be much appreciated if someone could guide me to an ACCURATE source of information regarding MAOIs and ayahuasca and diet so I can get my information on this topic straight.

Thanks,

-EG

Moclobemide is also a reversible MAO-A inhibitor and is known for not displaying serious tyramine interaction.

By the way, I'm certainly not saying people should eat tons of roquefort cheese pizza downed with beer soon after taking three cups of potent ayahuasca. I think some common sense applies. That's why I mention 'eat light' as a general recommendation. If on top of that you want to add extra restrictions for yourself, sure do whatever you want. I also think the preparation and dedication which one can manifest during dietas is by itself potentially beneficial. But one can also fulfill that same function in other forms of preparation and setting one's intentions, and still have an equally valid and deep and safe experience by just eating reasonably healthy and light, without dogmas.

thanks!

So with a reversible MAOI the the norepinephrine released by tyramine can displace the harmine/harmaline allowing the excess norepinephrine to be destroyed, avoiding a hypertensive situation. Which is why when using a reversible MAOI like harmine/harmaline the MAOI diet does not apply.

If this is not accurate please feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty sure I understand this now.

Before I drink ayahuasca analogues I normally won't eat for about 4-6 hours prior, I'm vegan so most of the MAOI diet consists of things I don't consume regardless, I was limiting my diet the day of the ayahuasca drinking, but now it seems there is really no reason to do so, though I'm sure it doesn't hurt.

Thanks for the information it's much appreciated.


-EG

Yeah I think you do understand it

Well you can experiment with yourself.. If you eat differently and don't feel well, by all means stick to a diet you prefer, or if you feel even better change your diet. Listen to your body and experiences.

But remember there is a natural variability in our body's responses to these substances too: one day we may feel bad, another not have any nausea, even when eating exactly the same... so it's hard to make any affirmations before many experiments. And even then, placebo effects/expectations can play a big part.

good advice, I appreciate it.

Thank you for all the help and information.

-EG

Will tryptamines not follow the tyramine's "excess NE" treatment as well? <-- Meaning becoming neutralized.
If the RIMA indeed get displaced by the tyramine's NE-release, which I read as a less inhibited MAO-A , will this also lead to a more "normal deconstruction" of the tryptamines in general?

If you are asking if the displaced harmine/harmaline would allow the DMT to be neutralized I honestly can't say, It sounds reasonable,but I'm a student on this topic as well.

-EG

Took it to the test: deliberately a firm portion of tyramine rich food, 2 hours later followed by a pharmahuasca of known size, and it actually was more intense than usual, could be the natural fluctuation, but definitely no less activity. No tyramine syndrome to notice, ymmv.

What was more intense, though? The MAOI effects or the DMT effects?

I still say that the best come down food for ayahuasca is a big bowl of miso soup..

The maoi (rue-harmaline) kept pretty standard in feeling, it was the light: got toasted
I can't conclude right away after just one test that tyramine was the augmenter, but there is chance to.

Gave it some time to analyze better.

The pharma size was known and the exposed amount to light quantitatively not more than before, but then why such a rubbing session? There was definitely a component in the experience that was new to me, which made me very vulnerable.

I wrote "no tyramine syndrome" in the way of no hypertensive feeling (but I didn't measure it), and no headache as best of indicator. But perhaps I did got a dash of tyramine syndrome in my own personal way, the extra component in the experience I spoke of.

It started with way more shivers than usual, but blamed it on the harmalas, thinking oh great signs of good start. But normally that fades as the vibe rises, this time not, and morphed in disturbed physical effects. I was cold, shivery, and hot at same time, light sweaty. I could not choose to cool down or warm up under a blanket. My thermostat went crazy. My breathing and heart beat went up, and I could not settle. A lost feeling, no bearing into the ceremony, no grounding, felt floating on discomfort. I think THIS set open the door to the light to kick my @ss extra strong. There was no more light (than usual) needed for getting toasted, just more vulnerability leads to that too.

If it was tyramine making the drift feeling, I won't recommend it as a potentiator, as it was an un-rooting event, nothing constructive, on the contrary. If this (only one) test is indicative to some degree: tyramine does not abridge maoi nor light, just makes things harder.

Tyramine in the afterglow, like jamie's add, must try that once, will be of different nature than tyramine in the heat.

Hi Jees,

Thank you for your analysis and review. I would like to see more first hand and fact based discussion of RIMA food interactions on this forum. Mindless regurgitation of decades-old information pertinent only to entirely different substances altogether doesn't help us understand the real risks and benefits of the harmala alkaloids.

In my opinion, based on my own experiences with harmalas, the interactions with foods are both overrated and underappreciated.

They are overrated in the sense that a true hypertensive crisis appears to be very unlikely to occur as a result of combined harmala alkaloids and tyramine ingestion.

They are underappreciated in the sense that there are, although generally not life-threatening, very noticeable effects from the interaction between harmala alkaloids and various foods ingested immediately prior to and during the active phase of harmalas.

I want to emphasize two points in the above statement:

1. The interactions are not restricted to tyramine, as the debate often is. I sort of know the effects of tyramine (nervous unrest, palpitations), but have also had different effects from e.g. candy containing licorice root extract (feverish response), coffee (restlessness, sweaty), chick pea meal (harrowing experience, fits and blackouts). Obviously the interaction with dmt-containing "foods" is of major interest to members of this forum, which is abundant with testimonies of such interactions.
Furthermore, as regards to the "dieta" in the classical sense, as far as I have always understood it, the "dieta" is not just some preparation to observe for an ayahuasca session, it is an essential part of shamanistic training in the Amazon. The initiate spends considerable time fasting, thus abstaining from most foods in order to better sense the particular foods under study as part of his training. Banisteriopsis caapi is consumed in abundance during the course of the "dieta" because by sensitivizing the body, the harmala alkaloids can really bring out the workings of the plant that is the subject of shamanistic study. Please correct me if I am wrong on this, I have no personal experience or acquaintance with genuine traditional amazonian shamans, but this tentative practice would agree with my personal experience.

2. Foods ingested after the aya/pharma appear to show very little interaction. It seems logical that when the trip is over due to the harmalas having lost most activity, the harmalas will no longer have much of an effect on the digestion of foods. Also, I suspect that they will be cleared from the gut earlier than from the central nervous system, and if that is the case then even though one might feel like the harmalas are still active, they would no longer be interacting with food uptake.
I feel that overall, stories of people eating or drinking "forbidden" foods _after_ a session are argumenting a moot point. Seriously, how many people here would even think of eating while the ayahuasca is still going full blast?
The situation is very different when harmala alkaloids are ingested when interacting foods are still being digested in the gut and/or are circulating in the body. From my own experience, I believe that there are two different interactions happening, a peripheral one in the gut and a central one in the central nervous system, giving different symptoms, the first being more limited to the digestive system (e.g. nausea and colics), while the second causes more mental effects, but may also have systemic effects, like on blood pressure or body temperature.

My own path with the harmalas has been this:
- Initially I had a strong apprehension of doing pharmahuasca, based on fear of the interactions with some of my favorite daily foods, like coffee, sourdough bread and aged cheese.
- After initial attempts with no discernible problems, the fear turned into disregard, having found that I could easily drink a full thermos of strong coffee and eat a stack of sourdough bead with aged cheese for lunch, and do pharmahuasca later in the afternoon.
- As I progressed through more pharma sessions, I began to notice that I suffered from more physical and mental side-effects and discomforts than other participants. It began to dawn onto me that perhaps, while the lethality was overstated, there might be something to the food interactions warned about.
- When I finally seriously employed some (not even much) discipline about diet, I was struck by the fact that my pharmahuasca experiences where so much more clear and pleasant.
- Of course, I had some lapses of care and discipline since, causing noticeable interactions. Since I now know the diet-based baseline, the effects of the interaction and their causes have become quite easy to pinpoint.

Finally I want to state that I have no experience with interactions between harmala alkaloids and SSRI's and the like. It is wise to assume that this combination is dangerous and must be avoided. On the other hand, given the prevalence of the prescription of these "doctor-drugs" as I like to call them, I have to wonder how often people do actually consume aya/pharmahuasca in combination with them and how dangerous/lethal this combination really is. I have not seen many reported cases in relation to harmalas.

Pitubo, your post resonates the most with me. This is what I was trying to communicate in my original post: The aya/pharmahuasca diet not about avoiding catastrophe--it's about facilitating the experience, making the best of it.

You make some great distinctions in your post.

I actually find diet before hand to be a much larger factor when it comes to mushrooms rather than ayahuasca..of course it is important with ayahausca as well. The digestive issue with both mushrooms and cacti is a larger issue for me than ayahuasca, or rue and mimosa brews.

mangos.

...what about them?