We've Moved! Visit our NEW FORUM to join the latest discussions. This is an archive of our previous conversations...

You can find the login page for the old forum here.
CHATPRIVACYDONATELOGINREGISTER
DMT-Nexus
FAQWIKIHEALTH & SAFETYARTATTITUDEACTIVE TOPICS
Are Magic Mushrooms Cardiotoxic? Options
 
Nathanial.Dread
#1 Posted : 11/21/2014 5:09:29 AM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2151
Joined: 23-Nov-2012
Last visit: 07-Mar-2017
I found this abstract surfing the web, but can't find the full article.

Quote:

ABSTRACT
Introduction
: Natural hallucinogenic substances seem to be one of the addict agents most commonly used in
European countries. The important source of those psychodysleptics may be a spreading growth of Psilocybe genus mushrooms.

Material and Methods:

To verify a previously published hypothesis on cardiotoxicity of hallucinogens, the ex perimental study in the form of a three-month test on male Wistar rats was performed. The study groups received intraperitoneally psilocin (PSI) in a dose of 10 μg/kg body weight (b.w.) or beta-phenylethylamine (PEA) in a dose of 1 mg/kg b.w. dissolved in 5% ethanol every second day for 2 and 12 weeks. The control groups received 5% ethanol or 0.9% solution of NaCl for the same time periods. At the end of the experiment, biochemical blood parameters, ECG, and myocardial energetic status were examined, as well as histopathological and electron-microscopic examinations were performed. The decreased serum magnesium concentrations in the PSI-exposed animals were noted.

Results:

The obtained results showed that the repeated (12 weeks) administration of PSI produces in rats ECG
abnormalities in the form of tachycardia, myocardial ischaemia and aberrant intraventricular conduction. It was
also stated that long-term exposure to PSI and PEA exerts a crucial effect on the energy heart muscle metabolism, which has been reflected in the complex changes in the myocardial profile of purine concentrations. These
abnormalities corresponded with degenerative changes in cardiomyocyte mitochondria observed on histopathological and electron microscopy examinations.

Conclusions: The results of the study indicated a cardiotoxic effect of psilocin, manifested by functional and structural changes in cardiomyocytes and coronary arteries


http://old.imp.lodz.pl/n.../Borowiak%20ABSTRACT.pdf

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 

STS is a community for people interested in growing, preserving and researching botanical species, particularly those with remarkable therapeutic and/or psychoactive properties.
 
Praxis.
#2 Posted : 11/21/2014 5:29:23 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 682
Joined: 30-Dec-2012
Last visit: 16-Jun-2024
Location: The Twilight Zone
Hmmm...this is concerning. The fact that they refer to mushrooms as an addict agent (I'm assuming that's a typo or shorthand for 'addictive agent'?) leaves me somewhat skeptical though. Wut?

Definitely intriguing and worth looking into; I'd be curious to know who funded these studies.

Unfortunately nothing is perfect...I would not be surprised if there were some kind of catch-22 even with something as seemingly safe as mushrooms.

Thanks for sharing!
"Consciousness grows in spirals." --George L. Jackson

If you can just get your mind together, then come across to me. We'll hold hands and then we'll watch the sunrise from the bottom of the sea...
But first, are you experienced?
 
Nathanial.Dread
#3 Posted : 11/21/2014 3:08:39 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2151
Joined: 23-Nov-2012
Last visit: 07-Mar-2017
VTSeeker48 wrote:
Hmmm...this is concerning. The fact that they refer to mushrooms as an addict agent (I'm assuming that's a typo or shorthand for 'addictive agent'?) leaves me somewhat skeptical though. Wut?

Definitely intriguing and worth looking into; I'd be curious to know who funded these studies.

Unfortunately nothing is perfect...I would not be surprised if there were some kind of catch-22 even with something as seemingly safe as mushrooms.

Thanks for sharing!

'Addict' made me raise an eyebrow, but I'm pretty sure that the paper was originally published in Polish, and then translated, so that may be a function of imprecise translation instead of a symptom of inherent bias in the researchers themselves.

Despite lots of Googling, I can't find much else on this.

Blessings
~ND

EDIT - Woot! 1,000th post on The Nexus!
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
Cognitive Heart
#4 Posted : 11/21/2014 3:11:09 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1903
Joined: 15-Mar-2014
Last visit: 25-Jan-2024
The LD50 of psilocybin/psilocin is beyond any aspect to relative toxicity.. however, I do see toxic effects occurring if fungus is used for prolonged periods of time, continually. Probably very low to albeit no toxicity.

Also, these studies were conducted with intra-injection.. leaving absorption to be quite rapid, ergo, rapid negative effects over the 12-week evaluation. Oral routes of psilocybin are much, much safer.
'What's going to happen?' 'Something wonderful.'

Skip the manual, now, where's the master switch?

We are interstellar stardust, the re-dox co-factors of existence. Serve the sacred laws of the universe before your time comes to an end. Oh yes, you shall be rewarded.
 
Nathanial.Dread
#5 Posted : 11/21/2014 3:22:40 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2151
Joined: 23-Nov-2012
Last visit: 07-Mar-2017
Cognitive Heart wrote:
The LD50 of psilocybin/psilocin is beyond any aspect to relative toxicity..however, I do see toxic effects occurring if certain fungus is used for prolonged periods of time, continually. Probably very low to none at all albeit!

Also, these studies were conducted with intraperitoneally injection.. leaving absorption to be quite rapid, ergo, rapid negative effects over the 12-week evaluation. Oral routes of psilocybin are much, much safer.

I was wondering if the effects were permanent or not. It might be interesting to do a study where half the rats that got psilocin were sacraficed and the abnormalities noted, and the other half were given another few weeks sans-drugs and then sacrificed and analyzed.

If anyone working at a lab licensed to use psychedelics wants to get on that...

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
Cognitive Heart
#6 Posted : 11/21/2014 3:38:42 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1903
Joined: 15-Mar-2014
Last visit: 25-Jan-2024
Quote:
These abnormalities corresponded with degenerative changes in cardiomyocyte mitochondria observed on histopathological and electron microscopy examinations.


I cannot say for sure.. however, as stated above, the (possible) damage comes from breakdown of mitochondria leading to insufficient functioning. If it's concerning you, I'd advise increasing your mitochondria energy with a supplement. This one I use (below). I'm no professional medical doctor but I'd be interested to see if PQQ were to alleviate any of the appearing symptoms of (if any) psilocin toxicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrroloquinoline_quinone

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=pyrroloquinoline+quinone
'What's going to happen?' 'Something wonderful.'

Skip the manual, now, where's the master switch?

We are interstellar stardust, the re-dox co-factors of existence. Serve the sacred laws of the universe before your time comes to an end. Oh yes, you shall be rewarded.
 
Nathanial.Dread
#7 Posted : 11/21/2014 4:18:53 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2151
Joined: 23-Nov-2012
Last visit: 07-Mar-2017
Cognitive Heart wrote:
Quote:
These abnormalities corresponded with degenerative changes in cardiomyocyte mitochondria observed on histopathological and electron microscopy examinations.


I cannot say for sure..however, as stated above, the (possible) damage comes from breakdown of mitochondria leading to insufficient functioning. If it's concerning you, I'd advise increasing your mitochondria energy with a supplement. Thumbs up This one I use(below). I'm no professional medical doctor, but I'd be interested to see if PQQ were to alleviate any of the appearing symptoms of (if any) psilocin toxicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrroloquinoline_quinone

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=pyrroloquinoline+quinone

Alright, those supplements look great!

Thanks!

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
skoobysnax
#8 Posted : 11/21/2014 7:04:08 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 685
Joined: 08-Jun-2013
Last visit: 04-Mar-2024
Microdosing is a novel idea but i also wonder about the long term effects on the body and nervous system when the receptors begin to expect the dose and if there are any toxins thatt build up over time.
Marijuana, LSD, psilocybin, and DMT they all changed the way I see
But love's the only thing that ever saved my life - Sturgill Simpson "Turtles all the Way Down"

Why am I here?
 
SKA
#9 Posted : 11/22/2014 6:55:57 PM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1104
Joined: 17-May-2009
Last visit: 18-Jul-2023
Hmm "addict" . Right there all crediility is lost.
Reading the rest doesn't exactly help it's credibility either.

I'm going to take this study just as serious as that other study that pointed out that
Harmine & Harmaline are Geno- and Cyto-toxic. Not serious at all.
 
Swarupa
#10 Posted : 11/23/2014 12:00:49 AM
DMT-Nexus member

Senior Member

Posts: 1178
Joined: 12-Oct-2010
Last visit: 08-Jan-2022
I know that on the wiki for Semilanceta it says of a man who frequently took semilanceta:

'In one case reported in Poland in 1998, an 18-year-old man developed Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome, arrhythmia, and suffered myocardial infarction after ingesting P. semilanceata frequently over the period of a month. The cardiac damage and myocardial infarction was suggested to be a result of either coronary vasoconstriction, or because of platelet hyperaggregation and occlusion of small coronary arteries'

The fact there is tolerance with mushrooms is a sign that you probably shouldn't take them frequently over the period of a month, but many many other people have without having heart attacks shortly after, also occlusion of arteries (which would've been the main cause of infarction) is a process that takes years not one month
 
AcaciaConfusedYah
#11 Posted : 11/26/2014 1:06:10 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 1288
Joined: 22-Feb-2014
Last visit: 16-Mar-2024
People often find the results they are looking for, no matter what results they actually receive. Especially when politics are involved.... which they likely are in studies related to drugs.

I wonder if the ethanol being injected with the alkaloids played any role...

Also, think about how you would feel if you were dosed(without your consent, or knowledge) and put in a cage and observed..... Stressed? Would your anxiety rise? Would all the stress related chemicals that are released from the various glands flood your body and cause more damage? Would your heart race?

Rats are not exempt from bad trips. A bad trip every day for 12 weeks would probably be horrible for the mind and body. Think about the variables that could potentially play a role.

Plus, we are very different from rats - biologically.

Sometimes it's good for a change. Other times it isn't.
 
AcaciaConfusedYah
#12 Posted : 11/26/2014 1:12:18 AM

DMT-Nexus member

Chemical expertSenior Member

Posts: 1288
Joined: 22-Feb-2014
Last visit: 16-Mar-2024
Chronic wrote:

'In one case reported in Poland in 1998, an 18-year-old man developed Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome, arrhythmia, and suffered myocardial infarction after ingesting P. semilanceata frequently over the period of a month. The cardiac damage and myocardial infarction was suggested to be a result of either coronary vasoconstriction, or because of platelet hyperaggregation and occlusion of small coronary arteries'


Though he developed it after the frequent mushroom use, it could be completely unrelated. People who have never eaten psilocybin a day in their life still develop these things.

Seems Both of the claims come from Poland. There could be political agenda. Who knows. There could be external variables that we don't know about.
Sometimes it's good for a change. Other times it isn't.
 
Ufostrahlen
#13 Posted : 11/26/2014 7:51:55 AM

xͭ͆͝͏̮͔̜t̟̬̦̣̟͉͈̞̝ͣͫ͞,̡̼̭̘̙̜ͧ̆̀̔ͮ́ͯͯt̢̘̬͓͕̬́ͪ̽́s̢̜̠̬̘͖̠͕ͫ͗̾͋͒̃͛̚͞ͅ


Posts: 1716
Joined: 23-Apr-2012
Last visit: 23-Jan-2017
Quote:
The cardiac complications of recreational drug use

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....pmc/articles/PMC1071198/

Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and psilocybin (“magic mushrooms”)

Pharmacology

Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and psilocybin are commonly used hallucinogenic agents that are structurally related and have similar physiologic, pharmacologic, and clinical effects. LSD is about 100 times more potent than psilocybin. Their mechanisms of action are complex with various agonist, partial agonist, and antagonist effects at serotonergic, dopaminergic, and adrenergic receptors.2

Clinical effects

The adrenergic effects of these drugs are usually mild and can give rise to general sympathetic arousal leading to dilated pupils, tachycardia, hypertension, and hyperreflexia. Although cardiovascular complications are rarely serious, supraventricular tachyarrhythmias and myocardial infarction have been reported.5 Changes in serotonin-induced platelet aggregation and sympathetically induced arterial vasospasm may have been contributory factors leading to the onset of myocardial infarction.5


& Recreational drug misuse: issues for the cardiologist p. 629 & 631

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc...60847/pdf/v083p00627.pdf

Internet Security: PsilocybeChild's Internet Security Walk-Through(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8)
Search the Nexus with disconnect.me (anonymous Google search) by adding "site:dmt-nexus.me" (w/o the ") to your search.
 
Nathanial.Dread
#14 Posted : 11/26/2014 3:39:48 PM

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 2151
Joined: 23-Nov-2012
Last visit: 07-Mar-2017
5-HT2B agonism is what really concerns me, not the adrenergic effects.

Blessings
~ND
"There are many paths up the same mountain."

 
Ufostrahlen
#15 Posted : 11/26/2014 5:14:26 PM

xͭ͆͝͏̮͔̜t̟̬̦̣̟͉͈̞̝ͣͫ͞,̡̼̭̘̙̜ͧ̆̀̔ͮ́ͯͯt̢̘̬͓͕̬́ͪ̽́s̢̜̠̬̘͖̠͕ͫ͗̾͋͒̃͛̚͞ͅ


Posts: 1716
Joined: 23-Apr-2012
Last visit: 23-Jan-2017
Nathanial.Dread wrote:
5-HT2B agonism is what really concerns me, not the adrenergic effects.

Blessings
~ND


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....magic+mushrooms+fibrosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....shrooms+Cardiac+fibrosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....term=psilocybin+fibrosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....locybin+Cardiac+fibrosis

No items found.

You could try to compare the Ki values of fenfluramine, psilocin & psilocybin at the 5-HT2B receptor.

http://pdsp.med.unc.edu/...lue+only&kiKey=49789
http://pdsp.med.unc.edu/...lue+only&kiKey=27707
http://pdsp.med.unc.edu/...lue+only&kiKey=49747
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....les/PMC2695569/table/T2/

No idea how to interpret the data though. Psilocybin & psilocin seem to bind stronger to the 5-HT2B receptor than fenfluramine. Look at the Ki of methysergide & ergotamine.

The paper states:

Quote:
As will be described in the next section, medications that are known to induce VHD such as fenfluramine, methysergide, ergotamine, pergolide and cabergoline share a common mechanism - namely, these drugs or their major metabolites are potent and efficacious 5-HT2B agonists.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....pmc/articles/PMC2695569/


Internet Security: PsilocybeChild's Internet Security Walk-Through(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8)
Search the Nexus with disconnect.me (anonymous Google search) by adding "site:dmt-nexus.me" (w/o the ") to your search.
 
SKA
#16 Posted : 11/27/2014 12:57:14 AM
DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 1104
Joined: 17-May-2009
Last visit: 18-Jul-2023
I think you're right AcaciaConfusedJah. Both from Poland.
I think indeed politics may have become mixed up with science, at the expense of the latter.

If Magic Mushrooms were Cardiotoxic you'd expect heartproblems to be frequent among psychonauts,
but no such thing is known. If mushrooms were cardiotoxic you'd expect it to be much better and wider documented.
I have heard of no other source ever claiming this before.

Those "scientists" need to lay off the wodka for a while.
 
Ufostrahlen
#17 Posted : 11/27/2014 7:07:58 AM

xͭ͆͝͏̮͔̜t̟̬̦̣̟͉͈̞̝ͣͫ͞,̡̼̭̘̙̜ͧ̆̀̔ͮ́ͯͯt̢̘̬͓͕̬́ͪ̽́s̢̜̠̬̘͖̠͕ͫ͗̾͋͒̃͛̚͞ͅ


Posts: 1716
Joined: 23-Apr-2012
Last visit: 23-Jan-2017
SKA wrote:
If mushrooms were cardiotoxic you'd expect it to be much better and wider documented.

I guess the key is:

Quote:
The study groups received intraperitoneally psilocin (PSI) in a dose of 10 μg/kg body weight (b.w.) or beta-phenylethylamine (PEA) in a dose of 1 mg/kg b.w. dissolved in 5% ethanol every second day for 2 and 12 weeks.


The reason why both claims come from Poland is that it's the same investigator, Krzysztof Borowiak.

More stuff from him on the topic psilocybin:

https://infona-demo.vls....5-4739-b280-7088af5d6e30
https://infona-demo.vls....e-497e-af12-c98c681b8b63

I can't access the articles, but they seem to be unrelated to 5-HT2B agonism.

If you really can compare the 5-HT2B Ki of ergotamine to psilocybin from the PDSP database, then developing VHD with frequent psilocybin intake is likely. But that's my uneducated guess. Better write an email to David Nichols, FX. Vollenweider or other high profile investigators, they can tell you quickly if I'm right or wrong.

http://www.neuroscience....eural_basis/vollenweider
https://pharmacy.unc.edu/Directory/denichol
Internet Security: PsilocybeChild's Internet Security Walk-Through(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8)
Search the Nexus with disconnect.me (anonymous Google search) by adding "site:dmt-nexus.me" (w/o the ") to your search.
 
LeftEyeOfHorus
#18 Posted : 5/13/2017 9:13:09 PM

Hello


Posts: 100
Joined: 24-Jul-2011
Last visit: 02-Jan-2023
Location: Bathroom
Probably should have started a new post topic whatever
 
 
Users browsing this forum
Guest (3)

DMT-Nexus theme created by The Traveler
This page was generated in 0.043 seconds.