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Growing under LED Options
 
--Shadow
#1 Posted : 10/14/2014 12:37:00 PM

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So I've been growing a bunch of different acacia's under a 150w UFO LED light.

At first I was pretty excited how growth rate performed in comparison to fluorescent lights...

..but I'm not convinced... Stop

What I've noticed over the course of 3-4 months, is my acacia's don't grow vertically without being forced. I'm not sure yet whether they grow away from the LED (as if it
s too strong and trying to get away), or if it's following a particular band of light (I'll explain what I mean by this below)

To provide the whole "spectrum", there is a mix of different LED lights (red/blue/green).
I think the problem is that the LED's emits a straight band/line of light, the light spectrum range isn't dispersed around evenly like you get with fluorescent lights.

I've tried to mitigate the problem by cycling the propagation tubes around and rotating them, but not often enough.

I've even noticed the foliage growth is not very even - ie big phyllodes on one side, small phyllodes on the other.

I thought initially it was the particular trait of a.acuminata's, having a weak stem or something, but I'm pretty convinced now it's the poor way the LED handle light dispersion.

This may be a different story for a single plant, but it's not the best option (ime) for raising more than 2-3 under a single light.

On the other hand... EXCELLENT for growing warped looking bonzai's Thumbs up



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xram
#2 Posted : 10/14/2014 1:02:31 PM

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Most cheap UFO LEDs are WAY under the supposed wattage (they'll say 150w and actually draw 50 at the wall), and because their diodes are very inefficient as well, you don't get your PAR worth from those watts. Also, green LEDs make no sense to have in most applications (the reason plants look green to us is because they don't absorb that wavelength, it's useless for photosynthesis), so the fact that your light uses them makes it very suspect.

Take a look at Area51 for some decent alternatives - they use top-bin CREE white LEDs, which avoids the problem that you mentioned. I would bet that even their 75-watt light (77.5w at the wall) will drastically outperform what you have now.

I'm not trying to hate on your light - the problem is just that the LED field is filled with utter crap right now and it takes a while to figure out what's not a scam.
 
anrchy
#3 Posted : 10/14/2014 8:17:30 PM

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What measurement is it that we should be looking at when it comes to grow lights? When people go for higher wattage bulbs for growing is it because they produce more lumens or is there another measurement of light that is important when growing? Wattage is just the measurement of Volts*Amps.

An LED bulb that says its 150w is basically saying it produces the same amount of light that an incandescent bulb produces while using 150w of power, but does not use the same amount. Wattage is not a measurement of light output so IMO this method of measuring light should be discarded. Flourescents are sometimes sold the same way. They will display the amount of wattage they are equivalent to, not always but sometimes.

Flourescent light doesn't travel very far. HPS lights and the like travel much farther. I cannot find any info on how LED light works.
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SnozzleBerry
#4 Posted : 10/14/2014 9:01:50 PM

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anrchy wrote:
What measurement is it that we should be looking at when it comes to grow lights? When people go for higher wattage bulbs for growing is it because they produce more lumens or is there another measurement of light that is important when growing?

Wattage is not a measurement of light output so IMO this method of measuring light should be discarded.

The lumen is a measure of light that is visible to the human eye. It has nothing to do with plants. If a hydro shop employee or a grower ever starts talking to you about lumens, you can be pretty safe in assuming you should ignore anything else they have to say.

The measurement you are looking for is "photosynthetically active radiation" or PAR. This is essentially the spectral range that plants use for photosynthesis.

Wattage is an important measurement that should not be discarded. Mainly because you can use wattage in conjunction with PAR to calculate PAR Watts. This addresses your points about the efficiency/intensity of CFL vs HID. Ultimately, PAR Watts is something you should encounter when talking to any knowledgeable grower about their setup, in the form of irradiance or PAR watts per square meter (or similar).

Here's a concise overview to help explain further Smile

Quote:
Watts is an objective measure of energy being used or emitted by a lamp each second. Energy itself is measured in joules, and 1 joule per second is called a watt. A 100 watt incandescent bulb uses up 100 joules of electrical energy every second. How much light energy is it generating? About 6 joules per second or 6 watts, but the efficiency of the lamp is only 6%, a rather dismal number. The rest of the energy is dissipated mainly as heat. Modern discharge lamps like high pressure sodium (HPS) and metal halide convert (typically) 30% to 40% of the electrical energy into light. They are significantly more efficient than incandescent bulbs.

Since plants use energy between 400 and 700 nanometers and light in this region is called Photosynthetically Active Radiation or PAR, we could measure the total amount of energy emitted per second in this region and call it PAR watts. This is an objective measure in contrast to lumens which is a subjective measure since it is based on the response of the subjects (humans). PAR watts directly indicate how much light energy is available for plants to use in photosynthesis.

The output of a 400 watt incandescent bulb is about 25 watts of light, a 400 watt metal halide bulb emits about 140 watts of light. If PAR is considered to correspond more or less to the visible region, then a 400 watt metal halide lamp provides about 140 watts of PAR. A 400 watt HPS lamps has less PAR, typically 120 to 128 watts, but because the light is yellow it is rated at higher lumens (for the human eye).

"Illumination" for plants is measured in PAR watts per square meter. There is no specific name for this unit but it is referred to as "irradiance" and written, for example, as 25 watts/square meter or 25 w/m2.

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adam
#5 Posted : 10/14/2014 9:07:05 PM

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Plant lighting
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anrchy
#6 Posted : 10/15/2014 1:14:31 AM

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Well how do you calculate wattage output, as it seems to me everyone goes by wattage consumption which is not the correct method of obtaining the output that plants receive.

How do LEDs rate for PAR watts? I would also assume that not every bulb is made equal. Im sure there is a meter that can read the output but thats not useful for everyone as not everyone can afford those nor would everyone need one.

My point of discarding wattage was purely on the basis of consumption, as im sure not every 150watt bulb (led, hps, fluorescent) puts out X amount of par watts.
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adam
#7 Posted : 10/15/2014 4:40:16 AM

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This

 
wearepeople
#8 Posted : 10/15/2014 8:00:08 AM

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whoa, whoa, whoa.

Are those Acacia acuminata? They do that sometimes. Even under the big ol' sun.

I'm not sure what causes it but I've had some do that and others haven't. Same seed stock, same soil, same sun, same watering....everything the same.
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--Shadow
#9 Posted : 10/16/2014 12:01:00 AM

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Hey guys,

Yes, that is an acuminata (broad). It's also happening to my Oxycedrus.
Funnily enough, Cyclops and Dunni don't seem affected so much, other that uneven growth.

In terms of growth, I'm pretty happy with what the LED is dishing out, and how the plants have performed, so I'm convinced of the technology, just not convinced of the design.

I will try the Area51 LED and see how they perform in comparison to the UFO. Thanks for the suggestion



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arcologist
#10 Posted : 10/16/2014 2:24:22 AM

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Note that the falloff of light in free space is always proportional to 1/distance^2, and there's nothing other than reflective surfaces that you can do to improve the output for a given light transducer (e.g. LED, HPS, HID, CFL). It makes a bigger difference to reduce the distance (halve the distance and get 4x as much light), grow in a small space, and use reflective sheeting on everything to reduce the light wastage.
 
ManicMongrel
#11 Posted : 10/17/2014 8:09:25 PM
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Do you have lenses on that UFO? That is very useful to limit spill light.

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anrchy
#12 Posted : 10/31/2014 3:58:44 AM

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Quality of reflective sheeting seems extremely important.

http://youtu.be/_IvrOL6Vtbo
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