Well said auxin...

I also find it telling that many people will go up in arms if you tell them you feed our child a plant-based diet, and look at you as if you've committed child abuse...as if we and our closest primate relatives didn't live that way for millions of years (but of course, there are unhealthy ways to live in all of these umbrella 'diet' terms ).

Then they leave so they can get to mcdonalds for the latest happy meal.

Being Vegan is hightech in my view. especially with the ethnobotanical variety it opens up

You've gotta have to have the right recipes, herbs & oils to make yer fruits & vegetables amazing. Juice and make bread. home made, become experimental. then it's all easy rollin' down hill

-Also because it's not directly causing suffering, which dairy especially causes. Being a female the concept of being pushed around and hurt while really sensitive when you're already pregnant (my idea of torture) & the taking away/ killing of the baby calves right after born, to make the milking cow pregnant again is Rather Sickening. milk only comes if the cow is pregnant, why drink baby cow milk anyway? oh but then they're killed like the rest so it's there when you reach to the shelf.


Come on you whimps! Try Veganism


video warning , don't watch you might become vegan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW1rjbDa9k4


It is incredible when your diet so compliments the Earth and everyone on it

"Also because it's not directly causing "

This is the part that always gets me. It is an animal-centric point of view. It does not take into account the fact that numerous studies have shown that plants exhibit a stress response. I am a professional gardener..I see it all the time. Plants are living beings and they exhibit incredible intelligence and sentience IMO. We tend to view things though a very limited human lense, often one that is based on language adopted through what science tells us about the world. The whole issue of killing plants as food vs animals is based on the idea that plants do not have a nervous system. I disagree with that quite strongly. Plants dont have an animal nervous system, becasue they are not animals. They still do exhibit states of stress, and will always react to a threat(such as grazing animals) in a way that showcases behavior of self preservation. There are studies that have shown that plants even respond to sedative drugs. Trees which go into states of deep stress and die durring transplanting for instance.. can be chloroform gassed beforehand and do then do do not exhibit the fatal stress response and can survive transplanting. How is this possible without a nervous system? I dont think we really know the exact mechanisms for how all of this works at this time..but the mechanism should not matter to the extend that we suggest the lack of an animal based model for a nervous system means that an organism is neither sentient or experiences something analagous to what we call emotions when it's life is threatened. Plants under stress exhibit all the traits necessary to assume that they dont like being under stress and that self preservation is preferred.

If you really think it is morally superior(and lets face it, that is what these claims imply) to not kill animals, and instead kill plants then that is fine. That is an opinion people are welcome to have. I just feel in the scheme of things it is a very narrow animal-centric opinion, and as someone who has made it my carrier to care for plants, I feel I must tell a different side of the story that I have observed. I believe that plants are intelligent, sentient beings that don't like you killing and eating them any more then a fish or a bird likes you killing and eating them. Intelligence and sentience are not things that should be measured exclusively next to the standards of human intelligence and sentience. Natural intelligence is apparent throughout the entire global system, and I would suggest throughout the entire cosmos. To assume that killing one form of it that has a mouth to scream is morally superior to killing another form of it that cant really run away(because they move in much slower time)and lacks vocal chords is kind of short sighted.

I have come to the conclusion that humans like to feel self important...and that usually that goal is reached through the narrowing of perception and acceptance of ideas rooted in the rigidity of what is familiar. We are animals, and the way in which other animals express truama is familiar to us and to other animals. We should always keep this in mind when trying to express how another living being such as a plant experiences life. All we can say is that plants obviously do not like being killed.

Also, the scenario of dairy cows you have presented above could apply to any factory farmed mono-cropped plants. Not all farmers treat animals in any way close to what you suggested, and in turn many farmers totally abuse plants as living beings.


"It is incredible when your diet so compliments the Earth and everyone on it"

Again, everyone except the ones who are not animals...

My point here? respect life and the life that you get to live on this earth. Never become so self important that you actually think you are living in a way this is above how other lifeforms on this planet have been living for far far far far longer than humans have even walked this earth. It can be easy at times to get the idea that humans are nearly angels...we are not. We are just another life form on a planet full of lifeforms. Accept it and respect it humbly.

I have never been of the mind that plants didn't have feeling too. infact it hurts when people say that they should switch over to a vegan diet because animals are sentient and plants are not. I wholly agree with your points on this matter.
Let's cut out factory farming for a sec. If there you were standing in a field with the sun shining on a warm day and in front of you was a small garden, that you planted .. and in the distance you see a deer grazing .. would your first thought be about the sun and the beautiful trees around you or would it be about picking a yummy carrot, or would you reach for your bow and arrow?

Animal centric - what does this mean?
Have you heard of the term speciesism? kind of like sexism or racism. we all just want to be treated equally because we live on the earth, but sometimes we have to demand it
I think you're being species phobic, honestly

Now because plants have feelings too doesn't mean we should continue down this path of disregard for other fluffy fuzzy creatures Lives/Feelings.

That is the strange argument to me with the omnis. "well you don't eat meat but guess what plants have feelings too" uhm what? the amount of Plants and Water used to feed cattle and other (in omni terms) [food animals] could stop world hunger many times over. Plus the worldwide + rainforest deforestation to grow that food, come on. the small enclosed boxes in which to live your miserable lives until death. It's selfish, hurtful and rude to mother earth to still live like this when vegan diets are healthy if you eat what your body wants/needs. too many go psycho on nutrition while leaving out other activities or become junk food vegans. that's not how..

If it were an off planet race, would you want them to do the same to us? and if they are already. I would say they have everyright to treat us as we treat other living beings of this earth, if you want to be fair.

If it is a superiority thing you're talking about - I would only wager that on vegan people's minds/diets it's an equality thing. The pain that is brought on to plants by humans and animals is hard to accept too. I feel sad to buy essential oils and not leaves, plus there are some of the goodies left out. But for a medicine that is effective these plants are gifts that I am greatfull for. I see how they're being mistreated and wasted and hurt and poisoned. I want all of it to change really, I just get a little emotional sometimes, sorry about my above post for those reasons..

Did you read my earlier response to you jamie?

I definitely take issue with some of what leaf said above as well, especially when it comes to buying any foods from large super grocers that are involved in factory farming and countless other things (buying from them is inevitable at times for many folks.. but to feel overly superior morally because of your false idea of it somehow being completely environmentally benign is another thing) ... But comparing fruit to the suffering an animal undergoes is just ridiculous anyway you slice it in my opinion. Fruit evolved to be eaten so to spread seeds around- end of. I already talked of that in my other response.

I'm not against people hunting their own meat or getting it from more humane local sources, and I didn't get into eating a plant based diet for moral reasons to begin with. I just think this comparison is very unrealistic. Regardless of fruit, even breaking a different part off of a plant is hardly comparable to killing animals in my opinion. I to think plants most likely have some form of consciousness, and wouldn't be surprised at all if they can feel emotions and perhaps even some form of pain . But to presume outright that what a plant undergoes when I break off a part of it is even on a comparable level to the suffering that occurs when I break off a part of, say, a cow is ridiculous and in my opinion not supported by any evidence.

I don't think the plants would like to be killed at all... but when it comes to actually conscious suffering of pain, I think the animals are likely to have them beat. Pain has a significant evolutionary purpose in animals. I could be wrong, but IMO it seems right now that plants nervous/consciousness system is far different from animals and it just does not seem evolutionarily designed to experience suffering on anything close to that level. Assuming it's comparable to an animals might help some people unconsciously justify their food habits, but I don't see any reasonable argument behind the idea.

Not to mention that the plant will likely live on and continue to thrive after you've removed significant portions of it, depending on the plant and so long as you aren't harvesting the entire thing at once. More sustainable methods like this can be employed all over the place for many plants.

Leaves naturally fall off, for example...An animals leg muscles...not so much.



Word. Well said.

Anyways... speaking of leaves...Leaf, you said:



Do you grow/forage for all of your own food or obtain it from local sources? Because if not, have you considered the negative environmental impact that it is having? All those boxes of food shipped across the world are certainly not complimenting the environment in a positive way my friend. Have you considered how the other things you buy may be having a negative environmental impact? Do you use anything that needs gas?

It's mostly the nature of the beast at this point, since we're enmeshed in this society and are basically forced to participate...but we should at least be conscious of this before we go putting down others and building ourselves up as some impeccable being...since we are all at least inevitably involved in it on some level.

Every word in this thread has been typed on an electronic device produced in a third world country using slave labor. If there is any equality to be found it's in the fact that all our hands are covered in blood, and all our actions contribute to suffering. No room for judgement here.

"But comparing fruit to the suffering an animal undergoes is just ridiculous anyway you slice it in my opinion. Fruit evolved to be eaten so to spread seeds around- end of. I already talked of that in my other response."

I never mentioned fruit.

But I have yet to ever meet a person who claims to be fruitarian who does not also eat vegetables, and if they did, they would probly not be the in the most balanced state of health. Therefore, I don't personally view that point being of much merit when considering a whole diet(ex that guy mango who lost like half his teeth trying to actually live on nothing but fruit). Fruit is just one part of a balanced diet. There is no way around ripping off what are essentially a plants arms and legs etc and eating them, often killing the whole plant.

?
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=563972#post563972

"to say you think the fruit wants to be eaten cus it's red and loaded with sugar but animals don't and then say it is a big circle we dont understand does not entirely make sense."

My (and it seems leafs) point was more about the level of suffering as opposed to just the fact of something being killed. I do not think the level of suffering is even comparable, which is all my post was getting at.

This does not make sense to me. How am I a speciest? I clearly made the point that all beings are, IMO sentient and worthy of equal consideration. You just went off on the same points as before, comparing plants to animals essentially saying you would feel better killing and eating the plants instead of the deer. How is that not speciest?

To address this

"It's selfish, hurtful and rude to mother earth to still live like this when vegan diets are healthy if you eat what your body wants/needs. too many go psycho on nutrition while leaving out other activities or become junk food vegans. that's not how.."

..I was vegan, for years..and then not vegan, and then vegan..and then raw vegan. I was raw vegan for a long time..long enough to find out in the end, that veganism can NOT supply me with nutrition I need. I was not on a junk vegan diet. I was eating a diet that was as clean as I can possibly imagine aside from living as a full time forrager. It just does not seem like a viable thing to expect everyone to do, accept that. Trying to take a route of moral superiority like exemplified above is what is selfish and naive. Humans are animals in a gaian system, not angels. Life is not a disney movie.

So to answer your question. I would eat the plants in the garden, until I felt like I was essentially falling apart and needed some kind of animal protein..and then I would go for eggs or dairy first or go catch a fish.

"I do not think the level of suffering is even comparable"

I know, but to be clear..I do.

When I said I never mentioned fruit, I was referring to my last post. Seed dispersal via edible fruit is just one mechanism plants figured out to more successfully reproduce and spread out. It should not be presented in a way that indicates that fruit is the ideal food. That is a conclusion I do not feel comfortable jumping to, because again it elevates humans above many many other species that are represented via metabolic systems that do not include fruit directly. It just happens that fruit comprises part of a human diet...and the seed dispersal mechanism showcases the profound intelligence inherent in plants that (IMO) indicates the level of sentience that was my original point in the first place.

To me it's a sort of thing that makes me go "so what?"...because I eat bags of fruit. I eat tons and tons of fruit..but then I have to find other stuff to eat..like anyone else..and those things must die. You cant get out of taking life. It is part of life on earth. Just do it with respect and dont think you are anything other than another animal.

I never said or implied that fruit was the ideal food, or that you can't get out of taking life, or anything about 'elevating humans above others', or any of this jamie. Again, my point was about the comparison of suffering being quite unrealistic. Frankly, a lot of what plant foods we eat are made to fall off to begin with (fruits, leaves, nuts...), and many that don't can be taken without killing the plant as I said. But inevitably death can be involved- and I agree with you that this is something often glossed over by people who adhere to certain dietary labels/philosophies.

I also agree that doing it with respect is the important part. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not a cow suffers more than a stalk of kale when I take one of it's leaves or one of it's legs. I think you're somewhat glossing over the inherent evolutionary differences between many plants and animals in regards to the evolutionary role the sensation of pain played in the development of their nervous systems. It's not speciest to think that one could very well have evolved a much more developed sense of pain than the other.

All this discussion about food makes me hungry:



Looks tasty, right? If your vegan/vegetarian patty reassembles the chemical composition of pork, why the hell eat meat?

I demand my patties being rich and balanced in amino acids, low in saturated fat and fortified with minerals, creatine and vitamins. And don't forget the right seasoning, because they need to have an umami taste!

Also useful in this discussion:

i'm with jamie on this one. like he said there are a ton of studies regarding a somewhat similar kind of non-animal nervous system in plants. actually, i read a really recent one that evoked some thoughts on plant intelligence where parasitic species were manipulating it's targets RNA in order to it lower it's defenses and let the predator feed on itself.

we discussed this before, how can we be so sure of something when in fact, all knowledge tends to become obsolete after a while when new discovers arise? i mean, for centuries (and i have said this before on the boards) people thought that the earth was the center of the universe and only about 16 centuries after (if i'm correct) copernicus came up with heliocentrism.
there is no way one should be attaching himself to ideas that will be eventually dismantled.

there is no point in gloryfying oneself for being attached to any kind of ideas, that is ego-feeding. maybe 100 years from now your great-granddaughters will be thinking of you as murdering beasts for eating plants because at that point more information has been gathered about these species.

speciesm is you pushing away other sentient, living beings out of your sight.
just because you don't know it, doesn't mean it's not correct. the substantial truth remains whether or not you aknowledge it.

This statement doesn't make sense. What has diet to do with electronics? Should Intel stop its conflict free resource program? And should ppl stop to demand that Apple improves working conditions in China?

Capacitors made out of conflict free tantalum work as good as capacitors with tantalum from war zones. Also: the prices for slave work vs. normal paid work is laughable. You can easily triple the earnings of an electronics worker and your iPhone costs ~ $15 more.

The only problem is that Apple keeps the $10 of the $15. That's why you should buy and demand local produced electronics, like the Nexus Q or fair produced smartphones like the Samsung S4 or the Fairphone. 95% of all work in electronics is done by chip shooters. The last 5% consists of the final assembly, which is brainless work like fastening screws or polishing cases.

So to bridge electronics & diet: Your capacitors don't care where the tantalum comes from, so does your body with the amino acids. The question is: does one want capacitors made out of slave work and food made out of whale/dog/pig meat?

I also want to know: what's the miracle ingredient in meat that you can't get from less-conflicting sources? Please tell.

The point is merely to illustrate that we are all complicit in suffering.

Here is an nice short article explaining what you get from animal products that is difficult to get from plant sources (though you can get these things with expensive supplementation).

Brain Nutrients Found Only in Meat, Fish and Eggs (NOT Plants)

Do you make your own processed meatlike product and cheeselike product? Or do you purchase it from a grocery store? Do you know what that money is really supporting?

Well, that's your POV. I don't know exactly who you mean with "we". A lot of people are actually rethinking their habits and work on a better world. I wouldn't call this "compliciting in suffering".


Ugh.. I can tell right away from the illustration that this article is full of bias.


Nope, you can all find them in lab food and some in plant food.

I have at #1-3 at home. None of these are expensive. If you buy them in bulk they are dirt cheap. #2 & #4 aren't essential nutrients.

I debated #5 in a former thread. Mr. authoritynutrition.com should look where fish get the DHA from.


I buy everything at the grocery store. My money supports companies that strive for suppling the market with tasty & healthy food, because the customer is always right.

I do my best each and every day to make choices that lessen my connivance in suffering. I however do not pretend that I stand on some moral high ground and do not contribute to suffering at all. I accept the consequences of my own actions.


Do you see the irony in this statement?


Every dollar you spend in a grocery store supports factory farming. You literally fund the animal genocide you claim to be against. Perhaps you should take some time to consider the consequences of you own actions before judging those of others.

Click for larger version:

Can you see that I'm not only criticizing form but also content?


Yes, I literally fund the animal genocide (sic!) I drank a bottle of Pepsi today. In return Pepsi gased 3 cows. I'm glad I don't have any business relations with the other companies.

IMHO the article is kind of bias against vegan diets..
When I went vegan the first thing people were worried about was what supplements I would be taking .. to keep up with the meat eating world. But since meat-eating is a topic unto itself I have no reason to believe that the things found souly in flesh (animal or human) are infact needed to survive & thrive on a plant based diet. I reason that these statistics were measured by meat eating scientists and handed down to Doctors as absolutely fundamental to the health of Everyone on the planet, which I cannot buy into.


Jamie:
So what you mean is, Plants, Animals and Humankind are sentient, aware and have feelings, though a little different from eachother & we should respect and be greatfull for our daily sustenance. While, as universecannon suggests, being mindfull of the environment in every way we can supporting local harvest and planting our own gardens.. (I am working on this, & it is trying) I can agree with this mostly, thanks.

I believe that a green sunny healthy Gaia Earth full of nutritious vegetation is meant to be taken into our bodies and to become one with & live through ourselves. Like psychedelic plants part of their life is lived through us to some degree.. from experience of fasting, Sungazing & Solar breathing (accumulation of energy from Sun or breathing in Solar prana) such as breatharian is a path that is able to be taken.

In regards to the article in question

A ton of vitamin D can be obtained very easily through mushrooms if they are put out in the sun for a time. Or by just sitting in the sun a bit every week yourself.. Like humans, mushrooms also get vitamin D from the sun

Humans getting vitamin D through animals products isn't nearly as effective as these two methods IMO.. My mother actually eats copious amounts of animals products of all kinds, and has for her entire life, but is nevertheless still vitamin D deficient according to her doc. Even in our animal-product obsessed western society, vitamin D deficiency is becoming a big issue. This is all compounded by the fact that the medical communities recommendations for vitamin D (and C for that matter) are considered ridiculously low according to many.. Suggesting that we just need to eat more animal products is to completely ignore the complexity of the issue. Regardless of animal products or not, imo, if you aren't getting sufficient amounts from mushrooms and/or the sun then I would consider supplementing just to be on the safe side. I do in the winter at times when the other methods aren't as available. And when it comes to vitamin D, moar better.

The article (and my post) paints a limited picture because most people are eating low quality food from increasingly nutrient deficient soils. And I think there is ample evidence that humans ability to assimilate and make use of nutrients (this ties into DHA as well, which btw is most important in early life and the conversion is boosted upwards of 15% during pregnancy) has become severely atrophied in recent times, but that's a whole other topic. How this ties into the new world of microflora and fermentation in the colon providing nutrients is also a factor and makes things even more complex. But because of all of this, I think it's difficult to take what we know now about the average human body now and how it currently processes/creates vitamins and project it back into the extremely distant past in order to find the 'perfect diet' by current standards, simply because we just aren't the same. This ties back into b12, obviously, since the soil can greatly effect the amounts available, and our bodies ability to make any use of it can as well. Some lifelong "vegans" show plenty of b12 in their bloodwork even without supplementation. Some don't. But taking into consideration the above, I think it's a good idea to take it as a precaution. It's interesting to note that in the wild we likely ate a decent amount of insects, either by choice or inadvertently, as they would often be on/in the plants or fruits we were eating; and many insects contain significant amounts of vitamin B12. Also this is interesting as it highlights other possible plant sources. http://www.hindawi.com/journals/cggr/2010/374897/