My appologies, Mistletoe Minx, my comments were meant for whoever wrote the words I quoted. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

I didn't mean to come off as indifferent, but no matter what, all animal testing hurts animals. They are all being forced to something against their will. It is unfortunate but when I think of who matters more human or any other animal, humans win. Thats not to say that I don't care about animals. I can't help but care more for my own species more than another. That's just the way I think.
The Brain would love to work within the law, but we are talking about illicit(at least where I'm from) drugs. These studies are also generally positive so I highly doubt that my goverment would sanction my research. They kinda have a history of only allowing research aimed at the negative aspects of drugs.
Anyways I understand that its a really touchy subject so I'll refrain from doing any harmful or deadly experiments. I'm much more interested in the primate studies anyway. Of course there is potential for harm no matter how careful I am. All I can hope is to minimise the potential for harm as much as possible.

Now I'm confused...you say you are an independent researcher who can't get the government to give this kind of work the 'OK,' but you also have access to apes to use run your tests on?

What kind of conditions are they being kept in? Where did you acquire them? Do you know how to test for language? What kind of facilities are you working at? Do you have a crew?

Again, this seems suspect.

What's with the 'The Brain' stuff anyway? No one here SWIMs.

>> I didn't mean to come off as indifferent

fair enough, mate, and I hope I don't seem too confrontational. I do get a little passionate when it comes to animals. Rats particularly. They get a tough rap in my opinion.


>> all animal testing hurts animals.


It does, but given your research area the question seems to me to be whether testing on animals is at all necessary.

I think there would be ways of investigating the topic that would be perfectly legal, more relevant and not involve questionable ethical practices.


>> Brain wants to see if their "language" becomes more ordered and complex. He also wants to see if they might increase in their sociability.


Why doesn't he conduct a natural experiment?

After all, there must me hundreds of thousands of people who take or have taken DMT.

Couldn't he ask them? Compare populations of DMT takers to populations that have not taken DMT etc. I mean, sociability is a measurable psychometric trait.

It would have the advantage that the model in study possesses genuine language.

I like Pinky and the Brain better than SWIM. Brain is the scientist and Pinky is the psychonaught.

Brain hasn't started the experiment, though if he had the chimps/apes would be kept in appropriate facilities. Also don't worry about where he gets his animals.

This is all just theoretical and he hasn't begun so relax. He understands the worries, but chill. If the Brain wasn't capable of doing this safely and humanely, he wouldn't do it at all. Before he does any experiment Brain usually goes through anywhere between weeks and sometimes years of planning before doing something. Especially when it comes to using animals. He started his research and planning process very recently. Brain is just looking around for information right now. He is a looong way off from actual experiments if they happen at all.

You really don't need to use SWIM/The Brain/Pinky. Nobody here does that, and many people find it annoying.

I suppose the study of DMT on animals could use more research. I just hope you know what you're doing. I'm against cruelty to animals. I understand that sometimes animal testing is the only way to get things accomplished. Just be careful is all.

Nope, sorry, I'm still worrying. Just because you think you meet baseline ethical standards for the care and treatment of experimental animals doesn't mean the animals agree. We already ran into some issues as to whether mice have feelings worth taking seriously. Also, the import, export and purchase of pretty much all apes is strictly controlled in most parts of the world, for ethical reasons. I'd be concerned by the prospect of someone acquiring them but not explaining how or providing any sort of documentation. Even if you plan to treat them perfectly well, the black market pet trade is catastrophic to the animals, the environment and the communities involved.

I can't stop you, I don't know where you live or what your name is, so you're free to tune me out, but I hate the thought of The Nexus being complicit, in anyway with the unnecessary suffering of any animal, even if that suffering was completely unintended or accidental.

DONT USE NEEDLES.....
They are gross even though I don't mind them going to the doctor to receive (important) injections. Then they don't bother me. Its only when you decide to mutilate yourself for the sake of getting high is my problem jus smoke the stuff, like what ColorfulColorado said it serves no purpose. Just cant stand seeing someone else let alone myself doing that to myself jus to "get high"...

Gods speed love and peace, ---dls---

I'm sorry alright. The brain will refrain from using animals jeez. Relax.

The nexus is probably not the best place to discuss unsanctioned research projects, especially the type that involve animal subjects.

Discussions of this nature can attract the wrong type of attention. Not that a forum dedicated to drugs is not attracting negative attention from some aspects....

It's one thing if we talk about dosing ourselves. Most of us have been warned about the dangers and benefits of dmt.

Probably ought to leave the discussions of testing dmt on animals to the labs that administer the tests.

I don't think I could ever feel comfortable dosing chimps with dmt. They might evolve on site and then enslave the human race... ya know?

Having also owned rats as pets I can say with certainty that they're one of the more intelligent mammals and more social animals, the pain and suffering you inflict upon them isn't any lesser than it would be if it had been us the tests were being run on and for what gain? to see if dmt expands conciousness? why not find a group of willing humans to run the tests on and see if it affects their communication and you'll have the added benefit of being able to get verbal reports on changes felt instead of just relying on your own interpretation.

Surely if you were any kind of a researcher you wouldn"t need to be asking these questions. You would have done a bit of research.



Talk of synthesizing drugs is not allowed here.

i agree, its ridiculous that people are concerned about what basically sounds like 2 people plying monkeys with psychedelics to see what happens, people need to get a grip of themselves

Are you saying it's ridiculous to be concerned about people playing around with monkeys/rats and psychedelics?

Please don't be cruel to animals, just because you want to play "researcher". Your assuming that animals do not have "real" feelings or emotions perhaps says more about you than about these animals. Maybe Brain should more often ask Heart for her opinion on his plans.

Forget about synthesizing DMT. It is too hard and too dangerous for anybody who is not a professionally equipped and skilled chemist, which you are probably not. Be happy with what you can extract from what nature gives you, using simple and relatively safe household chemicals to extract well-defined substances. About all you need to worry about is the possibility of traces of lye in your crystals. No uncertain and possibly toxic side-products. No severely hazardous (and expensive) reagents. No need to have NMR and GC/MS equipment at your disposal.

Please do not feel discouraged to study and learn what it takes to be a skilled and responsible researcher. In the mean time, please be careful with yourself and others.

A woman's pet chimp ripped the face off her friend......I'd hate to see a chimp having a bad trip. Okay, I'd click on the link, I won't lie, but it sounds like a bad idea.....unless the chimp took some DMT and gained a strange new consciousness, made an evolutionary leap and started a new race of super chimps. Ohhhhhh, new theory on Sasquatch forming.....

So we are on the same page.

Who says "they" are doing it for the sake of "getting high"?

And what's this about mutilation? Just because an efficient ROA grosses you out, doesn't mean it's gross.

It could be argued that vaping/smoking drugs damages lung tissue just as much as a needle puncture, ya know?

It's all relative anyways...

I think that there was a heavy element of sarcasm in 3rdI"s comment.



I agree. I guess syringes are stigmatised due to their association with bad drugs and the desperate actions that sometimes goes hand in hand with using them, such as non sterile conditions, dirty hits, blunt needles, impure products, missed veins, absesces, wrong PH of payload.
It is easy to forget that syringes can also help to save lives.

there was, i dont agree with animal experimentation at all.