This follows from this great thread: the case against elves Let's continue the discussion there, but vote on it here.

'Real'
is defined here as a sentient being. For example, if you believe that your are seeing the souls of the cells of your body, and that they are as sentient as the entities seem to be, for example, then that counts as 'real'. If you believe that the entities are sentient subatomic particles, that counts as 'real' too. On the offchance that you believe that you are watching a videotape recording of entities that once existed but don't anymore, then count that as real too. I doubt that anyone believes they are insentient beings like clams or plants, but if this is your belief then count them as real.

'Not real'
means that the entities are not sentient beings, or beings at all. For example, hallucinations, or archetypes, or representations of aspects of your psyche.

Please then post with a very brief description of what you think they are, and roughly how many times you've travelled.

SWIM told me they are not real. He thinks they are hallucinations made by the entity-recognition part of his mind. But that isn't set in stone- he is open to possibilities.

He has journeyed 60-odd times.

I voted no but the criteria to distinguish real from not-real must be improved and enhanced.

The 'not-real' version of that example is a computer created 3D creature (know game Spore ?) Computer entities can have very sophisticated behaviors. For example we could imagine a program that simulate a ant colony with high level of details. No one could distingish the video of the ants from 'real' ants. Does that makes the computer ants more real, ot the natural ones less real ?

Or does that simply means that any interface between eyes and objects is irrelevant for such distinction (the video screen in that case) ? But then if we consider that the hallucination do not even need eyes to be perceived, hallucination are more 'real' than any seen objects ?

I guess when it gets that complicated then one must use one's own discretion. I would say that a self-aware sentient computer programme is a real entity, even if it was programmed by someone. We are all, after all, programmed by evolution/genes. But I wouldn't count a computer virus or programme like we have them today an organism... wow that's a tough call. If someone believed that the entities were rogue 'computer programmes' inside the computer that is one's own body... that's a real toughie that would require a lot of thought!

It's interesting to see the results so far. Our previous assumptions that the Nexus is split 50/50 could be wrong. As I write, the votes are split 8 nos to 1 yes...

swim voted yes as swim feels DMT changes your natural vibration so that your consciousness is able to journey to different levels of consciousness and experience different realities.


Much Peace

i agree with you Aegle..but expect to get a bit of flak

Here's the kicker.... Is anything real? You tickle receptors in a certain way and they produce an illusion. The illusion of solid walls, of colors, of music. The receptors in your eyes, your skin, your nose, tongue and ears. Receptors. Tickle them just right and they present you with an illusion. What does DMT do? It tickles receptors and presents you with an illusion.

I'll vote yes for the entities being real, but only because I believe nothing to be "real", so in that sense, the entities are certainly as real as anything else. Though I believe reality to be an illusion. And I don't think anyone here can disagree with that.

If my coffee pot is real, the entities are real. If my coffee pot is an illusion, the entities are an illusion.

And I think my coffee pot has a consciousness, so that might confuse things further. lol. I think any molecular interaction (the exchange and sharing of energy) brings about a rudimentary consciousness. So... can a cluster of brain cells that create a being in my own being give something sentience? Yes... I think so. HAHA!

But really, I have to say, the worlds visited under the influence are tooooo real for me to deny.

Far too real. If you don't believe in entities how can you believe in the other visions DMT shows? And if you don't believe in the other visions DMT shows... then... you're weird. Haha! I base my life around the teachings of psychedelics. Rather than a bible I've got shrooms, a pipe and some cactus. They could never steer me wrong!

I'll vote no, because I see many unrelated things that are very much of THIS world as well as the strange pulsating alien environment. But I've come very close to being convinced, only to shake it off the next day.

But I do ponder it a lot.

Why thank you for the warning Jorkest, i will always stand up for what i believe in and i never just believe blindly i always question everything.


Much Peace

This is one of those great topics that you can discuss for ever and never come to a consensus.I voted yes but not a hard yes because bottom line is i dont really know.

I know at times it has felt like that world was more real than this one, like i was wakeing from a dream but this world was the dream world.

But what is your criteria for reality? What you can see, hear,touch,taste and smell.Well then some of the places and things ive seen in ASC's are just as real as me sitting at this computer right now.

How can anything not be real?Like Trips said its all an illusion created by the brain.Our senses pick up info and our brain interpretes it.I just choose to say its all real instead of all unreal.Its the same thing right?

One thing ASC's have taught me for sure is that everything is connected,its all one thing creating an infinite amount of manifestations and we all co-create together.But seperation is the real illusion.Things like DMT or any ASC allow you to tap into this infinite cosmic soup.So yeah i think those entities are just as real as we are.Maybe in some other dimension those entities are discussing whether we are real or not.

I would be disappointed if anyone did give flak, from either camp. Your beliefs aren't impinging on anyone else's freedom

P.S. don't forget to put ow many journeys you've had! It would be great to see if frequency of travel affects belief in entities.

thanks for putting up the interesting poll ohoyaco... i always enjoy hearing from you my friend.

to the question: i would answer it this way-

1st hundred or so journeys i would have voted "real" without reservation.

2nd hundred or so journeys i would have voted "not real" with equal conviction.

3rd hundred or so journeys to where i am right now i truly, truly, truly believe they are 100% BOTH.

without churning out a giant diatribe on the hows and whys, i will simply say this: from where i stand right here, right now i am of the belief that we are part of everything and everything is part of us. i believe that there is NO sentient life but that oneness of which we are all part. things may look individual but when you have seen them from enough different angles (dimensions?), you will ultimately find your own face staring back at you (metaphorically speaking of course).

yesterday "at church" i saw a god with infinite faces...beautiful, terrible, funny, erotic...everything....i realized that how i would experience god would depend entirely on which face i chose to address...


think about that one for awhile....

...i certainly have been...


....and did i mention that one of god's faces was my own?...

LOVE AND GRATITUDE!!

Well said, antrocles. Endless obsessing about what is "real" won't get you anywhere. In the final analysis, there's no important difference between saying everything is real vs everything is not real. A "truer" perception is that all things are one thing...and one thing is all things.

I'm a Believer

I'm still in my infancy with my relationship with dmt. My number of breakthroughs is at 6.

I really can't imagine how I could imagine such things that i have seen and felt...there is just no way imo. I've also seen a UFO years ago so I've always been certain that we really know nothing..

Peace and Love

oh too add..SWIM has smoked dmt hundreds of times..and broken through hundreds of times...have no idea of the exact number though..

I love how people claim that if what you see on dmt is an illusion then so is a wall or a coffee pot. That makes no sense. The coffee pot you can touch and feel taste smell (if theirs coffee in it). DMT space you can only see think about in and have emotional feelings in. That's a MASSIVE difference.

By the way SWIM voted no. SWIM have only journeyed around 20 times on dmt and don't think it or any other psychedelic substance will change SWIMs mind. SWIM has used many psychedelic substances over the years and doesn't see dmt as any more special or interesting then the rest (lsd, psilocin, mescaline) in fact less so (in smoked form anyway). Only science can will and should change SWIMs mind about whether the entities are real sentinent beings. The subjective psychedelic experience is proof of nothing else then that your brain is capable of more then you thought.

On this note SWIM gotta bail again for a while guys SWIM too much else to do. Peace and joy and fun and all that.

Haha that's a vote-swaying speech Antrocles if ever I heard one. It reminded SWIM that when he is there he always thinks that where he was 5 minutes ago (reality) isn't 'real'. But just because we're usually seeing one illusion that doesn't make the illusion inside the illusion not actually an illusion... does it? Science help us, it's all so confusing!

See you later burnt, it was nice havin you around for a while.

BYW, I voted no, but not a strong no since the human understanding of existance on the subatomic level is very limited.

Really? I have reached out on many occasions and touched things, smelled things, and tasted things while under the influence of DMT. So then one can argue the difference between real and not is whether or not it is mutually agreed upon as existing. Well, I know for certain I'm not the only one to storm the elven palaces, nor to visit the wacky ass dmt pyramids. Others have seen them, so we agree that we've both seen these things.

What about a schizophrenic? They can touch, taste, hear, smell and interact with figments of their imagination. To them, what they experience is real, and the only way to have them agree with the rest of society is by giving them DRUGS, which SHOULD distort the perception of real from not. Sanity, like reality, is a spectrum. You've got levels of sanity, levels of real. The only real deciding factor about whether something is real or not, is how many people you can get to agree with you.

It makes perfect sense. I study Chemistry and Neuroscience. These have taught me that absolutely nothing is what it seems. Your brain has evolved to give the most EVOLUTIONARILY FAVORABLE view of the world, shaping it and twisting it to conform. If it would have been beneficial for you to notice every single molecule of air, then you would have receptors that showed you them. Reality can be approached from an infinitude of angles depending on the hardware you are using to look at it with. No two humans see the world alike, let alone two different species. What a coffee pot is to a human is ENTIRELY different than what a coffee pot is to a slug. But at the molecular and subatomic level, whats a coffee pot? Mostly empty space with some interactions of energy taking place. That's all. You SHAPE it into whatever you like.

Neither a wall nor a coffee pot are illusory BECAUSE what you experience under the influence of DMT is illusory. They are illusory all on their own. It makes perfect sense. Real is whatever you choose to believe is real, because nothing exists outside the creator of all: The mind.