I'm sorry, but you are extrapolating wildly based on solid evidence moclobemide is safe. Tranylcypromine is also a RIMA and DOES cause the cheese effect. There is _some_ evidence that Brofaromine may be _safer_. It's reasonable to speculate that harmala alks may be _safer_.

http://www3.interscience...urnal/120813001/abstract



Moclobemide, tranylcypromine, toloxatone and brofaromine are ALL RIMA's. You are assuming all RIMA's are the same. They aren't.

why are you talking about moclobemide? and tranylcypromine? the major RIMA's in caapi and rue(which is what most people use to make dmt orally active) are harmalas...and they are safe to use...and of course not all RIMA's are the same...if they were all the same...they wouldnt be different...you dont need to tell us this..

harmaline is more powerful than harmine and THH...but its more sedating and the visual effects from it are much different as well...

THH is just about as powerful as harmine..but its also a mild SSRI...and has some lovely energy behind it

harmine is energetic and easy

we understand that not all drugs are the same..but why are you talking about RIMA's that nobody is using for orally active DMT?

Because there's no evidence that harmala alks are safe. The argument that 69ron was making is they are safe because they are RIMA's. I'm pointing out there is really only one RIMA that has been shown to be safe--moclobemide. There's some evidence that some others are safer, but not completely safe.

I'm by no shape or form trying to put down harmala alks--I think they are wonderful. I'm just saying it's not a good idea to eat tyramine rich foods during the peak MAOI effects of an oral dose. We're only talking 6 hours here at the most. And we're only talking about oral doses sufficient to significantly inhibit MAO. It's irresponsible to tell people that it's safe to eat aged cheese during an aya journey, and just because it's been done sometimes with no hypertensive crisis doesn't mean it's not dangerous. Like I said above--we're talking "risk" not "certainty."

It's also possible that they are safe--we just don't know, and why take chances? If you must have some wine in the midst of an aya (or pharmahuasca) journey then make it white rather than red. How easy is that? I just don't want to see anyone die simply because others who don't know what they are talking about have assured them it's perfectly safe to eat anything during the peak MAOI effects.

THANK YOU for posting that Xlplytsym. Somebody needed to say it! You seem very knowledge, please keep posting here!



Exactly! I promote a 36 hour diet when using ANY type of MAOI (or RIMA or whatever the hell it is)!

BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY!

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibitor_of_monoamine_oxidase_A


The only food that one should avoid is probably grapefruit. From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit#Drug_interactions


Also, the MAOI effects of harmaloids taken sublingually shouldn't even be significant, right? I could be mistaken, but if it can't even activate oral DMT, than it's not going to cause any bad reactions with tyramine (not that it even necessarily would in common oral doses and common levels of tyramine anyway).

The significance of this is not whether one can scarf down fermented foods during a trip, but whether having had tyramine containing foods shortly prior to a trip should cause one any undue anxiety or to forgo the trip unnecessarily.


What one should probably consume more of is watermelon

Lol! Well I wouldn't go quite that far. I think it's VERY safe to assume that once your past the point it can potentiate tryptamines then it's safe enough for tyramine. You really have to get a shitload of tyramine on your bloodstream AND have your brain MAO-A knocked out to get into trouble. Even then there's a lot about this we still don't understand. Even on irreversible full-spectrum MAOI's you can eat proscribed foods without *always* having any difficulty. But there's certainly no harm in playing it extra-safe.

God knows, the first time someone eats 15 over-ripe avocados two hours after ingesting aya the media will have a field day--"Woman dies from overdose of deadly drug Ayahuasca! Film at eleven!"

There's a rational place between the fear-mongering, "Don't eat ANYTHING with ANY tyramine or tyrosine for TWO WEEKS before and after any Aya journey..." and the denialists, "It's COMPLETELY safe! Everyone drink Aya and eat some cheese!"

I'd say 36 hours is a reasonable compromise between those two. 6 hours is probably still completely safe.



God knows I love wikipedia. I've done quite a bit of writing and editing for them myself. But they're wrong on that one. Maybe if I have time later I'll go fix it.



Completely correct. Unless you're also doing large amounts of tyramine sublingually (or any other method that avoids first pass metabolism) then it's first pass metabolism you need to be concerned with. If the tyramine never gets into your blood stream then no worries. And the smaller sublingual doses, completely bypassing first pass metabolism... truly no worries.



There could conceivably be some danger if they were eaten *very* shortly beforehand. Wait a few hours in such cases. No need to utterly forgo the experience, just make sure those fermented foods are thoroughly digested before adding any MAOI to the mix.

And speaking of the topic of this thread--I *just now* received some THH HCL in my mailbox. Might try a small sublingual dose tonight (depends on my mood later) or if not certainly tomorrow. Am really looking forward to it.

Wrong in what way? I'm curious. I've always heard of grapefruit having compounds that work similarly to SSRI's. Whatever the case, would it be safe to ingest in conjunction with an RIMA or MAOI?

Xlplytsym, we all know caapi has never caused the "cheese syndrome" in anyone.

Give me your proof that caapi can cause the "cheese syndrome".

Caapi is often used by people who eat aged cheese all the time. In South America pretty much everyone eats aged cheese all the time.

I eat it every day.

This is utter bullshit.

Give us proof. You brought it up. You claim its dangerous. Prove it.



That is from Erowid.

I meant wrong in the sense of the word "only." I'm really not sure about the grapefruit juice thing. Grapefruit juice is an inhibitor of the cytochrome P-450 enzymes. These enzymes are known to metabolize SSRI's in the liver. Drinking grapefruit juice while taking an SSRI can create a toxic reaction because the chemical ingredient will build to toxic levels in the bloodstream, but I've never heard it works "similarly" to an SSRI. THH is a mild SSRI... that could be the risk. THH seems to be well tolerated at far higher doses than needed to be psychoactive, though...

Maybe the rule of thumb is, again, better safe than sorry. How difficult is it to avoid grapefruit juice for 6 hours (or even 36 hours) after ingesting harmaloids? On the other hand I don't see this as serious a risk as tyramine rich foods. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

SWIM has taken San Pedro with THH quite a few times. San Pedro is high in tyramine. He eats aged cheese with nearly every meal and during ayahausca sessions and never noticed ANTYHING AT ALL.

SWIM has taken 200 mg of harmline and eaten an aged cheese sandwich during the peak and felt NOTHING from the cheese.

Prove it's dangerous! SWIM does this all the time and never had any kind of reaction at all.

You cannot get the "cheese syndrome" from harmala alkaloids. It just doesn't happen.

Within 6 hours of ingesting harmaloids? Not likely in S.A. considering the dieta and fasting requirements, and not likely in your case as well. Even considering S.A., aged cheese is a new part of their diet--NOT traditional. How often do they (or you) eat aged cheese just before or in the midst of an Aya journey? They have thousands of years experience with this stuff, but not thousands of years experience interacting it with aged or fermented foods.

Remember, these hypertensive effects aren't even universal on irreversable MAOI's. For harmaloids there is a much smaller window of opportunity for them to be a danger. In THAT sense, at least, harmaloids are certainly safer. That still doesn't mean it's a good idea to eat aged cheese while the MAOI effects of harmaloids are at their peak.

Besides, who the hell suddenly starts craving some gruyère in the middle of an aya experience? Any time I've ever become hungry in the midst of an aya experince all I wanted was some fresh fruit or raw vegetables. I LOVE cheese, but not on Aya. Waaaay too heavy.

The fact that no hypertensive crisis has YET happened is at least in part due to the fact most people don't crave the rich aged foods that have lots of tyramine during the experience. All I'm saying is--let's keep it that way.

Many people eat after having ayahuasca.

For SWIM, he gets nausea if he doesn't eat so he always eats within 5 minutes of taking it.

He eats food high in tyramine all the time.

He's taken harmalas with cactus, coffee, cheese, pizza, you name it. He's done it all.

I'm calling bullshit on this theory.

If harmala alkaloids could cause the "cheese syndrome" then SWIM and many other people would be in the hospital.

There’s not a single case of "cheese syndrome" reported for people using caapi or rue. Not a single one. And that is A FACT.

"SWIM" is obviously a strange one, and shouldn't extrapolate "SWIM's" lack of negative effects to the general population. (Sorry, I'm sick of this "SWIM" guy.)

Again--not even everyone on irreversible MAOI's ever got a negative reaction to tyramine rich foods. "SWIM" may be the exception to the rule, OR "SWIM" may have just lucked out so far OR "SWIM" may be inadvertently correct and harmaloids really don't interfere with tyramine metabolism. That doesn't make it right for "SWIM" to assume that it's safe for everyone until there's real evidence showing that to be true. Until then it's better to be safe than sorry.

And BTW, THH is certainly the safest of the harmaloids in this respect. Try S.P. on a high dose of harmaline... never mind... forget I said that. DON'T.

Bullshit.

Show me a case of a single person, just 1, who got a verifiable case of tyramine poisoning after consuming caapi and eating aged cheese. Show me 1. Just 1. That will end the argument very nicely with some actual proof of that theory of yours that caapi is dangerous.

Sorry. It took years for them to figure out the risk of even irreversible MAOI's.

Besides, I've said before there may not even be any risk. Yet there is ample reason to believe their MIGHT be, and that's a good enough reason to be cautious. And what is the big deal? How difficult is it avoid tyramine rich foods within 6 hours of taking an MAOI effective dose of harmaloids? When the risk is so high and it's sooo easy to avoid...?

i know somebody who has also taken san pedro extract with thh, harmine, and harmaline...hes also given it to a few people...and none of them...NOT ONE had any sort of negative reaction at ALL...he has even taken san pedro extract with pharmahuasca that consisted of dmt fumarate, harmine, thh, and harmaline all together...while drinking some wonderful home brew and EATING AGED CHEESE..this actually happened and not some pipe dream...he has never had any ill effects..except for the random purge..whether it be vomiting or shitting...but that happens...

there is absolutely no evidence that harmalas are in any way dangerous when combined with tyramine...if you hadnt noticed...the people on this board have been at this sort of thing for a LONG TIME..with many people reporting on the effects of their experiments..and not one of them..in the history of what i have read here..has anybody been negatively affected by consuming tyramine around consuming caapi or rue

and while he never would recommend this...my friend has also taken THH with MDA, MDMA, and some other RC's such as 2ce, 2ci, 2ct2...granted..it increased the effects dramatically..but it wasnt life threatening or even worrisome

"A few people." Well you obviously understand the scientific method. There was that guy in Oregon who tried to commit suicide by putting a nail gun to his head and put 12, count em, 12 nails INTO HIS BRAIN. Two weeks later he shows up at the hospital with a headache... I guess that proves it's safe to put a nail gun up to your head and pull the trigger.

Right.

There is also absolutly no evidence that harmaloids are NOT dangerous when combined with tyramines.



You're friend is an idiot who's lucky to be alive. It happens. Hear about the guy who jumped from an airplane and his parachute didn't work? He bounced a few times on someones lawn, broke every bone in his body, but still survived. Go figure. Besides, THH? Minor maoi effect. Tell your friend to try gain with harmaline... again... scratch that. Tell your friend to count himself lucky and move on.

People with REAL experience here are telling you it doesn’t cause the "cheese syndrome" and you still think it does!

You don't know what you're talking about.

If it did there would be people dying from using caapi who accidentally ate a taco with cheese. Do you know how many people eat aged cheese who also use caapi! We’re talking thousands of people.

At least 1 case would have happened. And there isn't even 1.

Cheese is not one of the items forbidden by the shamans. If it was dangerous to use with ayahuasca it would be on their forbidden food list and it’s NOT.

Total utter bullshit.

It seems like some people are not grasping the concept here. Try to understand--

1. Even with irreversible MAOI's not everyone experienced the tyramine effect.
2. Pointing to "a few people" who didn't experience that effect with harmaloids means bubka.
3. It's a question of "risk" not "certainty."
4. If even one person dies from ayahuasca or related that's bad news for all of us.
5. See above.
6. See above again.
7. It's very easy to avoid this risk.
8. See above.
9. When there's real scientific evidence that harmal alks are safe with tyrosine we can all relax and have some aged cheese while journeying...
10. Yuck! Who the fuck eats aged cheese while journeying!!!!