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Psychedelics, Buddhism, and meditation Options
 
Global
#21 Posted : 5/4/2014 1:02:29 PM

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You talk about there being contradictions in Buddhism and one big reason is that Buddhists can't even agree which is the authentic tradition. You have Zen, Theraveda, Mahayana, Nichiren, Tendai, Vajrayana...You say not to mix traditions, so if that's the case, only one school of Buddhism can be right, but more likely is that historically traditions have been mixed, changed and adapted for centuries. If you think Buddhism is the genuine spiritual path, you'd better hope you've picked the correct, authentic one.

From a non-dual perspective, it seems outright contradictory to say that "someone is enlightened" because using the formula of saying "anyone is_anything" is an inherently dual statement. I think it's naive interpretation to assume that enlightenment or buddhahood is this inherently permanent state. I've never seen direct evidence for this permanence, and as such it stands as a large assumption. I'm quoting myself from recently:

Global wrote:
I think part of the problem is the language we use when we say "someone is an enlightened being" because there is sort of this implication that the person is always enlightened. It's kinda like if you were to call a person nervous...sure they are - right now - but in a different setting or even just the passing of time, that person's state of being can fluctuate and change entirely. I think there can be fleeting moments of enlightenment in the same way that there are fleeting moments of butterflies in the stomach or feeling one's heart racing.

Perhaps we can think of ourselves like a piece of string. This string has been wound around a pole for most of its existence. Now someone comes along who takes the string off the pole and can stretch it between his hands so that the string is perfectly straight. The string momentarily enjoys this perfected state of being. When the person decides to let go of the string, the string almost instantly begins coiling back up again, even in the absence of the pole. The string may be capable of remembering what it's like to be "straightened" but he cannot will it just because it has been done before, and telling the other coiled strings about it doesn't directly make their coiled lives any easier.


It's ironic that you talk of Buddhism arising from direct experience because the same holds true for psychedelics. Despite the fact that Buddhism may have been derived from direct experience and that said experience is still potentially attainable today, it still must be taken completely on faith that you will arrive at your end goal until you actually do. It is also textbook projection to assume as well that what psychedelics cannot do for you, cannot be done for everybody (which goes hand in hand with the yogi who took LSD and called it "super samsara" - maybe if he had taken a significantly larger dose and merged with the void, that he may have been of quite the different opinion). If someone through the use of psychedelics has perceived themselves as being one with the All, God, Buddha, etc...who is anyone who wasn't explicitly present to inauthenticate it?

Imagine you're on your Buddhist path which is like a metaphor of going through live by climbing a mountain with enlightenment being the peak. As you go through your life, your Buddhist mentors reassure you that the only way to the peak is through a long, arduous life of drudging up that mountain one foot at a time. Time goes by, and you grow old. You feel the end can't be far. Approaching from the other side of the mountain is a metaphorical psychonaut in a helicopter. He falls out of the helicopter hitting the peak, and going on rolling down the mountain from there. Now he can say he saw the top, but could the aspiring Buddhist? Food for thought.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - Albert Einstein

"The Mighty One appears, the horizon shines. Atum appears on the smell of his censing, the Sunshine- god has risen in the sky, the Mansion of the pyramidion is in joy and all its inmates are assembled, a voice calls out within the shrine, shouting reverberates around the Netherworld." - Egyptian Book of the Dead

"Man fears time, but time fears the Pyramids" - 9th century Arab proverb
 

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joedirt
#22 Posted : 5/4/2014 2:19:16 PM

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Global, Buddhahood is supposedly a permanent state according to a few references in the Pali Cannon....

I believe this is likely possible, but I also think that the word enlightenment has been so exaggerated at this point in time that it is an almost meaningless word. Nirvana (nibanna) as it's described in the Pali Cannon is effectively a mental state that never snaps back into subject/object awareness... This doesn't mean that a Buddha can't continue to function in the world... He can still see the space between his body and yours, but he is fully grounded in non dual awareness at all times. Actually what I'm describing are characteristics of an Arahant where as Buddha was a a fully enlightened being who had overcome all the taints.... Mind you Buddhism has just as much mythology as any religion....but I don't want to digress on that for now.

Let's back up for a second.

I personally think psychedelics can catapult a person to the state of stream entry. In fact I believe I have actually reached the state of stream entry.. So what is stream entry? It's described as a gateless gate, which is just mystic woo woo. Stream entry is the moment in time when the mind fully comprehends the idea that there is no separate existence. At this level it is not a permanent state of mind. People who have had true Godhead experiences on psychedelics have in fact reached this stage.. though if they only think of it as a psychedelic experience and not as a beneficial state of mind then perhaps they had a stream entry like experience, but their mind didn't in fact latch onto the true significance of it? I don't know for sure and there isn't a reason to speculate about others so much. For me, I pretty much can't escape thoughts about this interconnectedness (and that has been true for the last 3 years or so now). The more I meditate on it, the deeper I see it. The deeper I see it, the more grounded I become in this realization. The more grounded I become in this realization, the more faith I have in the other aspects of the path.


While, I suspect full enlightenment may very well be a blissed out state, the initial stages of awakening have little to do with this. The word equanimity comes to mind first and is in fact one of the most important factors of enlightenment (of which there are 7).

Anyway I don't really want to dive down this bottomless pit of opinions on the subject.. But I do want to disagree with the OP on one point.

Quote:
I think new age paths, where traditions are mixed together like ingredients in a stew does great disservice to both the tradition and the practitioner.


I find this to be a strange statement coming from a Buddhist. Buddhism is very explicit about the impermance of all things. Trying to preserve a tradition from a fixed moment in time is essentially saying that no future human will have a greater insight... Remember the Buddha's last words were, "Be a light unto yourselves". Buddhism is a beutifal religion to me because it is adaptable. I doesn't try to force dogma on a culture, but tries to embrace that culture and extend it with Buddhist principals.

What you argue for in this statement leads down a scary path.. Christianity for example has been largly unwilling to embrace modern knowledge like evolution, and some can't even believe in cilmate change.. But hey they aren't deviating from their tradition... Confused

I don't believe we need static fixed spiritual traditions. We need traditions that keep current, are willing to change if new evidence is provided.. In this regard I believe the Dalai Lama to be an extremely important figure in the world of Buddhism. He is literally one of the only religious leaders to reach out to science with open arms because he knows quite well that clinging to tradition is a trap.
If your religion, faith, devotion, or self proclaimed spirituality is not directly leading to an increase in kindness, empathy, compassion and tolerance for others then you have been misled.
 
redsquirrel
#23 Posted : 5/4/2014 3:18:43 PM
squirrel


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Hey folks, great replies... where to begin?

As far as the different schools of Buddhism go. These developed due to lineage, the passage of time, the capacities of different students, and the absorption of various cultures as Buddhism made its way across Asia. There are certainly squabbles over the rhetoric and fine points that these traditions put forth, but they are all considered teachings of the Buddha and authentic Dharma. The idea
of there being only one true tradition of Buddhism doesn't exist.

My objection to the new age culture of spiritual gumbo does not come from a staunch stance of dogmatism, sectarianism, or the blind following of tradition. I have no problem with evolving the teachings, in fact, Buddhism kind of has a certain malleability built into it so the teaching can be adapted for different individuals in different times or places.

You need to understand, from the Buddhist point of view, Dharma is not a tradition or a set of beliefs. It is a thorough description of reality as it is. The truth of suffering, the path of liberation, and the emptiness of all conditioned existence is not going to change, because that is the way of the world. This is how we can see so many different traditions within Buddhism, and yet none of them fundamentally contradict each other because they recognize and work with Dharma, the natural laws of our world.

What scares me, is when you start seeing these self-proclaimed teachers, who have no connection to lineage, basically making a made up mish mash of different beliefs and calling it Buddhism. People are free to believe and practice what they will, it makes no difference to me, but when people start introducing things to the Dharma that directly go against the basic truths of Buddhism, like the concept of an unchanging soul or a creator god, and calling it Buddhism then there is a problem.

I can't see the benefit of basically creating your own religion, with views that fundamentally contradict not only the core teachings of Buddhism, but contradict basic universal laws accepted by all Buddhists, and then calling it Buddhism. This is in no way progressive, it is just sloppy and distasteful. I am referring not to people's personal beliefs, but to hack self-proclaimed teachers that take whatever comes to mind and dress it up as Dharma. This does happen and can create problems for beginning students who are sincere about learning Buddhism but don't have the experience to recognize that the teachings are inauthentic and bear little resemblance to the actual thing.

Hey, I can't be that much of an old fashioned traditionalist if I am on here talking about my years of drug use, right?
 
redsquirrel
#24 Posted : 5/4/2014 3:44:44 PM
squirrel


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About the idea of somebody becoming enlightened but not escaping duality. If somebody is something, then you have a situation of duality. True.

If I was to become enlightened today, I, redsquirrel would cease to exist, at least from my enlightened point of view. It is not a case of somebody becoming enlightened, because that somebody never existed in the first place, they only appeared to exist as a separate individual from the standpoint of ignorance, or put another way, from the perspective of those who have yet to realize enlightenment.

Enlightenment is permanent because the enlightened state is always present, either completely manifest in the case of a Buddha, or dormant or hidden in the case of folks like you and I. The enlightened state has always been there, and will always remain, its just a question of recognizing and integrating.

I don't agree with your analogy of enlightenment being a far-off goal on the top of a mountain peak. I would say it would be like panhandling for pennies while the ground we walk on is pure gold. Out of ignorance we don't recognize this ground.

I am not trying to reduce or toss aside anybody's psychedelic experience. I have had, and continue to have many profound experiences with psychedelics. Can we recognize this ground of pure gold on psychedelics? Of course, the chance to recognize the enlightened state is always available, and perhaps psychs offer a unique opportunity for doing so.

I think I would like to change my position. I think that we can experience spiritual states on psychedelics, but that they are not efficient to constitute a spiritual path, specifically within the context of Buddhism. Getting a glimpse of something is far different from being integrated in it 24/7.

I have personally met Tibetan masters who have reached this state of integration. I have faith in the path because I have seen its fruits embodied in my teachers. IME, it is far more profound when you experience weird sh*t sober compared to experiencing weird sh*t while under the influence of a chemical.

These are just my opinions and have absolutely no worth in the grand scheme of things.
 
redsquirrel
#25 Posted : 5/4/2014 4:45:36 PM
squirrel


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I would like to add that I am really interested in hearing about people's experience with psychedelics and meditative states and spirituality and awakening.
re
In my experience, my psychedelic experiences had little correlation with my chosen spiritual path, in this case Buddhsim. I really didn't expect most people to agree with me, and I am in no means trying to convert anyone to my view.

I have tried to present my views as precisely as possible, because when we talk about spiritual stances and experiences we invite a lot of murkiness. I am sure that my attempts at communicating in a precise and clear manner has produced just as much miscommunication. The fault is entirely my own. These are big subjects that can be next to impossible to communicate. Perhaps my attempt at communicating something so profound is off-putting to some. My own understanding and realization is quite meager. I certainly don't have it all figured out. This is what makes conversations like this so interesting for me.

I would love to hear more. By all means, tear my view apart. I think that when we try to communicate our experiences and view we are naturally confronted with limitations. This is the nature of relative existence and conceptual understanding. On the flip side, all views and experiences have their own signifigance and validity, relatively speaking.

I think that there is much potential for learning here, and it is our differences that make this possible.

I find this dialogue juicy and delicious... By all means let's keep it coming.

Word 'em up!
 
darklordsson
#26 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:01:33 PM

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redsquirrel wrote:
If the inner experience was eternal, it would never change, always being the same. These are things that you have to investigate on your own, on the cushion, and experience (that word again!) for yourself.


This is true to a degree tho, when we are born and come into this world what i have found is that you do never change, you change only when you let this world allow you to. The rat race of life... People telling you "Cant do it" or putting you down, those who make fun of others have deep seeded problem that they need to figure out, but cant, others can, some stop this horroble line, some pass it down to others because they too, are insecure, what we hate, but to find peace with how we live here, so it does not bother us at all. We are the same from birth, its uncovering that part of us, after the world has broken our souls, and say soul as a very loose description for ex. astotravel. That could be your "soul" flying through the cosmos. I jsut choose to belive thats my essance, and to me that is a soul, someones essance.
 
zhoro
#27 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:11:19 PM

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redsquirrel wrote:
Birds are chirping
I can barely keep
my third eye open.


This is Zen.
Here it is - right now. Start thinking about it and you miss it. ~ Huang-po
 
indydude19
#28 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:24:00 PM

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A cat sits until it is done sitting, and then gets up, stretches, and walks away
I died a mineral, and became a plant. I died a plant and rose an animal. I died an animal and I became human. Then why fear disappearance through death? Next time I shall die, Bring forth wings and feathers like angels; After that, soaring higher than angels-- What you cannot imagine, I shall be that.

Any speakings written are the purely fictional ramblings of an illiterate grande taco, and are false in the face of truth when judged by the all-father. They are in no way real.
 
darklordsson
#29 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:25:20 PM

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[/quote]
Imagine you're on your Buddhist path which is like a metaphor of going through live by climbing a mountain with enlightenment being the peak. As you go through your life, your Buddhist mentors reassure you that the only way to the peak is through a long, arduous life of drudging up that mountain one foot at a time. Time goes by, and you grow old. You feel the end can't be far. Approaching from the other side of the mountain is a metaphorical psychonaut in a helicopter. He falls out of the helicopter hitting the peak, and going on rolling down the mountain from there. Now he can say he saw the top, but could the aspiring Buddhist? Food for thought.
[/quote]


This is true, but the guy jumping out of the helicopter didnt dedicate his whole life to it tho he jus woke up out of bed took a couple steps and said "hey im gonna get to see now" but one who has built a solid foundation on beleif and right good morals had to build them as they mustered up the effort to climb that hill also, had alot more time to tune himself for if something bad were to happen. But that hike is building endurance for when you get to the top to make it more understandable when u do get there. When your there you get to look down at the beauty and soak it all in. And who knows who your gonna meet on the way?
But yes, many religions claim to be "the right one" but As a practicing Buddist, I took and left the info which has farthered myself along as well From those different religions. Gotta know whats crap and whats not, meditation helps see through the paper thin lies of radicals opinions.

But to be truly enlightened is knowing that your not compleatly and probably never will be till you cross over then its the big picture.

But Global, Im still practicing, do you recommend any meditation technique? I know theres many and Ive come across a couple but help would be appriciated in looking for a great technique.

Happy Travels My Friends!
 
redsquirrel
#30 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:26:30 PM
squirrel


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The nature of samsara, conditioned existence is constant change. This is true for all outer phenomenon as well as all mental phenomenon, including your deepest sense of self and ego. This is all part of the illusion. The fact that everything is in a constant state of flux means that there can be nothing solid that we can hold on to. Our everyday experience of course, is quite the opposite.

Jeepers!!! I just puked... came out of nowhere. Now that is zen!

I do believe there is a state beyond change, and it is what I undersitand as the enlightened mind or Buddhahood. This changeless state is always present, it is in fact a part of our deluded perception. Most of the time this state goes unnoticed. If we persevere in meditation, we can cath a glimpse of it. If we follow the path to its culmination, we become integrated in this changeless, non-dual stae. At this point there is no going back, you are a Buddha and you will never no ignorance again. This doesn't mean that you are completely absorbed and disappear into nothingness. Through the nirmanakaya manifestation of Buddhahood, an enlightenend being manifests in the world in order to teach the Dhaarma. So there is this sense of individuality that remains in Buddhahood, but only from the standpoint of relative beings, and not from the standpoint of enlightenment.
 
Û©
#31 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:33:38 PM

.

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redsquirrel wrote:

Jeepers!!! I just puked... came out of nowhere. Now that is zen!


Are you OK?
That doesn't sound very Zen to me.
 
redsquirrel
#32 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:40:04 PM
squirrel


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Also, the guy jumping out of the helicopter had no way of knowing that the peak that he encountered was in fact the enlightened state, or if it was just another manifestation of his mind. Psychedelics break down our ordinary perception, but that doesn't mean that the extraordinary perception that we experience is still not just another manifestation of our mind, regardless of how novel or extraordinary it may be.

This is where teachers come in to play. Most teachers will tell you that we are actually pretty bad at truly interpreting our experiences, due to our attachment and expectation.

A true teacher can tell you if your experiences are authentic glimpses of enlightenment or just a higher form of samsaric consciousness.

The distinction between a true state of non-duality and advanced states of dualistic consciousness can be very subtle. This says nothing of further integration of that state. When you are on a path, and you are having these advanced types of experiences, it is good to have a teacher to guide us and confirm our realizations. Otherwise there is a very real danger that we eill end up deluding ourselves.
 
darklordsson
#33 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:43:49 PM

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Very true, spoken in the right direction!Thumbs up
 
redsquirrel
#34 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:44:53 PM
squirrel


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Yeah, I'm fine, just a little haggard. My body is really sensitive and I didn't take care of myself this weekend. I've always been a puker, in fact I consider myself to be semi-pro in the field of oral discharge (You can tell by my writing, you could compare it to a torrent of vomit. Hopefully I didn't get any chunks on anyone...)

I need to eat a solid meal and get some good sleep, that's all.
 
redsquirrel
#35 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:48:30 PM
squirrel


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So this may be unsolicited but I am going to throw this out there anyway. If you want to learn a good meditation learn tonglen. It is very unique, in that it works both your compassion and your wisdom simultaneously. It can also be used at any point during our daily lives.

If you want I can talk more about the nuts and bolts of the practice, but not now, I don't have it in me. Haggard be thy name.
 
Û©
#36 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:49:19 PM

.

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Didn't sleep last night?

Maybe it's time for breakfast and a nap?
 
redsquirrel
#37 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:52:46 PM
squirrel


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I am not a teacher mind you, I don't want to come off as elitist like I have something to teach and the knowledge to teach it. I have been involved with these practices for a good portion of my life though. Ultimately I am just an ignorant practitioner that is prone to bouts of verbal and digestive diarrhea.

I'm definitely going to go puke now. Can't say I enjoy it, its really not the same when your sober.
 
darklordsson
#38 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:56:14 PM

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Been there before...
jus take it easy today
 
redsquirrel
#39 Posted : 5/4/2014 5:59:14 PM
squirrel


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I am in the midst of this weird state of insomnia and anxiety that I get now and then. This is the tail end of it, but I no that I would not be able to sleep at this time. I am going to eat a homemade cupcake, though. My mom made it. The illusionary cupcakes invokes feelings of illusionary desire within my illusionary mind stream despite my illusionary nausea.

 
redsquirrel
#40 Posted : 5/4/2014 6:02:38 PM
squirrel


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I would like to give an all around thanks to this community here, its nice to have a place to rant. I have had some very special experiences in the whee hours in the morning in the chat room. Clearly a sign that my social life is seriously lacking.
 
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