Against. The results of a case in the judicial system in the US are highly dependent on your wealth. This is a problem that leads to inequitable sentencing for minorities and poor people in cases of all severity, but is even more crucial in death penalty cases. Personally, the question of moral right and wrong doesn't even play into it because the system is so badly compromised that the results of these cases against people who can't afford to defend themselves properly are questionable at best.

Goes to show how sick and ˝twisted is society˝ in general.
Same people in government/institutions will in certain situations reward you for killing with fame, wealth, medals etc. when it serves the empire. But as soon as you do it on your own your labeled sick and need to be put to sleep for it.
I am not saying that it makes it any better or more justified in any case.
Same people that have been rewarding you in some instances are killing you for it in others.

Insanity.

Better to ˝prevent˝ than ˝heal˝ when it comes to this subject but that would expose the sick cannibalistic system that we perpetuate as individuals and collective. So what does that say about US.

I agree but the inequalities of legal defence relating to wealth has everything to do with morality in a society that puts the phrase "liberty and justice for all" in it"s pledge of allegiance. Having said that if they had written "liberty and justice for those that can afford it" it still would morally wrong.

But even if you come to a point where you can justify it, does that make it fair for everyone else?

I totally agree with you, Hug. I didn't mean to imply that I think capital punishment is morally or ethically right, and there is certainly enough wrong with our legal system, political system electing lawmakers, privatized prisons, and so on to fill an encyclopedia. I don't agree morally with capital punishment, thought I don't fault families of victims as I know I would struggle if someone hurt my kids. I just think that there are enough pragmatic reasons to be against it without even getting in to all that.

To anyone that hasn't read this - it's extremely insightful and very moving.

A Letter from Texas Death Row Inmate Ray Jasper who is about to be executed.

Thank you for sharing this. I can't even express how I feel after reading that.

Wow... Powerful stuff. Thanks for the link, Adjhart.

I wasn"t calling you out on the question of morality. Merely making an observation/rant. I think that we are on the same page as far as this thread is concerned.

As an anarchist, I do not believe in a death penalty, or any penial system for that matter. That being said, I am NOT AGAINST killing criminals. Some people just don't deserve to live amongst the rest of us. Everyone should be responsible for their own safety and their own rights. If someone does something harmful to you or your loved ones (family and friends), you do what you feel is necessary to obtain "justice". If you go too far or cross a line, the society around you will take care of you. I know if someone raped or harmed any of my loved ones, they would die. Period. I would walk into the courtroom with a smile on my face and face my "justice" as it came. Say what you will but violence is natural. Every animal on the planet embraces violence from time to time. We are no better. We are not special. I do not believe in agression, but I have no problem responding to violence with greater violence. There is no response to violence except violence. If you have never dealt with violent people than you don't understand this concept so don't speak on it. If you believe that violence can be dealt with peacefully then lets run an experiement. PM me and we will meet somewhere and I'll punch you in the mouth. You try and talk me out of doing it again. Give me flowers, picket signs and posters, the whole nine. See if it works. I promise it won't. What would work is if you punched me back in the mouth harder than I punched you and knocked me unconscious. No more punches in the mouth from this guy. As barbaric and uncivilized as that experiment sounds, it is proof that violence is the only answer to violence.

The problem with a government ran "justice" system is that it makes mistakes. It is corrupt. It is slanted and shows favoritism. A jury of your peers? Peers that will judge you based on how well the prosecution sells them a story. Peers that do not know you or anything about you besides what they've been told. No telling how many innocent men and women have died because of this. I understand my ideals are a little ahead of our time as anarchism could never work with so many imbeciles and lesser humans wondering the earth staring into iPhones, shoveling fast food down their throat on their way to the mall to buy the latest gadgets and fashion requirements. So as long as the government runs the "justice" system I cannot support a death penalty. When you put stupid, power hungry, traditionalist tyrants in charge you will kill innocent people.

This is sort of interesting . . . . from what I gather from reading your posts, your brand of Anarchism is almost identical to LaVeyan Satanism, and I say this because I was once a card-carrying member of the Church of Satan (as far as I know I still am, it was a lifetime membership). Are you familiar with Satanism?


The Nine Satanic Statements
by Anton Szandor LaVey

The Nine Satanic Statements originally appeared in The Satanic Bible, © 1969

1: Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2:Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3: Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4: Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5: Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6: Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7: Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8: Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9: Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!



The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth

1: Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2: Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3: When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4: If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5: Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6: Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7: Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8: Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9: Do not harm little children.

10: Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11: When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.




The Nine Satanic Sins


1: Stupidity
The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2: Pretentiousness
Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3: Solipsism
Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

4: Self-deceit
It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

5: Herd Conformity
That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

6: Lack of Perspective
Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7: Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies
Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8: Counterproductive Pride
That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.

9: Lack of Aesthetics
This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.



Sound familiar???? (And I should not that I still agree with a lot of this, even though I am a mystic these days, working for Light and all that funky jive).

The Church of Satan

Surely, you're familiar with the notion that the layperson believes "Anarchy" to be synonymous with "chaos", "violence", "lawlessness",and "destruction".

And if you're a real Anarchist then I'm going to assume that you believe this to just be propagandized indoctrination. That Anarchy literally means "without government", and by promoting that you're not promoting anything like chaos, violence, or destruction, but rather the idea that we can do a better job of ruling ourselves than politicians. Right?

That being said, I disagree with your claim that only violence defeats violence.

What if you make the other person not want to hit you?

To translate my argument into your metaphor:

You punch me in the face, and I tell everyone I know. This includes the person that bags your groceries, your mailman, your wife, your kids, your friends, your mechanic, your doctor, your local farmers, your business associates, and your mother.

In the Anarchic society that I wish for - this is the course of action.

Your mail is thrown on the ground next to your mail box, you get cold shouldered from the wife, kids ask you honest questions about why you would violate someone, friends would tell you their opinions, mechanic might overcharge you, doctor might be harsh on you, local farmers reserve the runt produce for you, business associates mention it, and on top of all of that you have to hear about it from your mother.

Don't you think that would keep you from punching me a second time? And if you did, I'd tell them all again. The further you violate a member of the community, the further the community will ostracize you.

This is how I believe a healthy governmentless society reacts to aggression.

The whole beauty of this system is that there is a real incentive for rehabilitation when the family, friends, associates, etc., don't want to see you ostracized or even worse escalate crimes to something like you mentioned.

I am familiar with LaVeyan Satanism. I do no align myself with any religious group including The LaVeyan Church. I agree with many prinicples of the doctrine but disagree with many as well. I especially like the 11 Rules besides Rule 7 because I do not believe in magic. Everything that operates in this universe must operate by this universe's laws of physics. Not saying we understand in whole (or even half of) the laws that govern this universe or that things do not happen that we have yet an explaination for. Just saying I don't believe in "magic". I agree with the 9 Sins almost spot on. I must admit, I have many ideas that are in synch with LeVayans. I also have many ideas that are in synch with Buddhism, Christianity, Paganism, Islam, etc, etc, etc. The point here being that (I love this part) there is truth in all things.

Magic is real. the word "Magic" in Satanism is misleading: it is emotional release toward a desired end. It works. I have, and continue to, use "magic" to achieve my ends. I agree, though, the word is misleading. "Magic" is physics we don't fully understand. Considering we can only see 1 percent of the visible light spectrum, there is so much we don't know, so we call it magic. Some animals cannot even perceive a rainbow, which to them would seem like magic.

I agree with most of what you said. Especially the part where you expose the criminal throughout the community. And for such and instance as punching someone in the face, that would work beautifully. That would work 9 times out of 10. But that WOULD NOT work every time. There are people in this world that don't care about the opinion of the community around them. There are people in this world that are so delusional that they can justify any action and feel as if they were in the right no matter what. Sometimes you have to resort to that ancient technique. Violence. This is the animal kingdom and this is how it works. Not every time, but sometimes.

Sometimes violence is the answer. I got bullied my whole life until I was about 15. One day, I decided to hit the bully with a cinderblock. The next time, I smashed a kids face into the concrete until I was forcibly pulled away from him. The next time, I stabbed a kid with a pencil. No one at school ever bullied me again. I tried telling teachers. I tried telling parents and friends. Until I tried violence nothing worked. I've had a man attempt to rob me at gun point. You know what pursuaded him to stop? I pulled my gun out and put it to his teeth. He ran away. Worked flawlessly. I will never be an advocate of agression. But I will also never be an advocate of non-violence. I will never have a "just lay down and take it" kind of attitude. I would rather die than be violated or abused.

Holy bloody Jesus on a bicycle. This is great advice on how to get a manslaughter charge. There is NO EXCUSE for hitting someone with a cinder block or stabbing them with anything unless it is a life or death situation.

No one ever bullied you again because they all thought you were psychotic. Such anger in you, young Padawan . . . .

Yeah, thanks for posting that man. The author brings up so many valid points, and his letter has helped me put some words to my experience.

Any real investigation into or experience with what has been become the prison industry,as described by Jasper, will show one that our justice system is a cruel joke. It is a for-profit industry through which young black Americans are put back into slavery.

In America in the 21st century, we offer our young black men prison and the poor whites and Hispanics endless combat tours. Either way it is tantamount to slavery for the poor to enrich the wealthy. It is an absolute disgrace that can only be changed through an entire dismantling of the system. I cannot support the death penalty or any aspect of the American judicial system. I support the changing of minds so that eventually thev kind of brainwashed thinking that has allowed things to get this bad will evolve into a more empathetic, as jasper spoke of, way of looking at the situation.

Even with a long standing knowledge of the joke that the justice system is, at one time I supported the death penalty. We can really only ever enlighten ourselves, but perhaps if more people really knew about what the prison industry is, it could change. Probably not in my lifetime, but maybe someday.

I won't disagree with that or defend my actions. I went way too far on a number of occasions. It was my first time though. I didn't know how to fight yet. I just knew that this guy was trying to hurt me and did what I did. But then again, I'd rather go too far and live to tell about it than not go far enough and be a pretty corpse. I am pretty angry. I won't deny it. I use my anger to my advantage. I am angry at the injustices I see in the world. I am angry that obesity is a problem in my country while others starve. I am angry that religious nuts are spilling innocent blood across the globe. I am angry that politicians are exploiting our people and padding their pockets. I am very angry. But I am not irrational. I am angry but not enraged. I am mad but not without thought. Anger is a human emotion. Use it. Harness it. Turn something negative into something positive.

EDIT: On a side note, how do you determine what is a serious or life/death situation? Do you wait for the aggressor to show that they are seriously trying to do real damage or kill you? At that point it may be too late. I treat every act of physical aggression as a life or death situation. If I get into a physical confrontation, I am trying to do the most damage as fast as I can and get out of there. I am not there to score points or be a badass. There is no point. Just get the job done and get the fuck out of Dodge.

You stated you were bullied as a child, and I responded with that in mind: as such, it is reasonable to assume that school kids bullying others aren't trying to kill you. Hence, a cinder block is a horrible reaction. Stabbing is a horrible reaction.

I have never been in a fight in my life, so it is strange for me to "treat every act of physical aggression as a life or death situation": are you finding yourself in physical situations often? "If I get into a physical confrontation, I am trying to do the most damage as fast as I can and get out of there": This is a very depressing and sad statement I'm sorry to say. This is the attitude that has people beating each other to death, and perhaps finding themselves on death row.

How much of the violence in your life is others' random acts and not simply a reaction to the palpable aggression you exude? Like attracts like, anger begets anger. I know when I am angry, everything else seems to fuel that anger, feeding it until I realize the utter uselessness of living in such a state.

I have to agree with this sentence. When I'm angry things simply don't work. Everything is more difficult, misaligned, unlucky. There's no flow - and like 112233 said, the only thing that cures this is that moment when you transcend the anger and let it go, IME anyway.

I see this very literally as a new father. I've had moments of anger and helplessness due to the inexperience that I'm sure all fathers experience. I cannot operate properly in that mode, and having a fragile life in my hands really underscores that.