After watching that documentary, my thought is that in safe doses, the ego and self-will surrenders to ayahuasca effortlessly.

Hi!

I'm back! Sorry for the long absence. I had other things in life that came up, but I've returned to do an experiment cycle with ayahuasca analogues.

Welcome back

It's great to see you around again!

Hi!

No, I never tried this mixture, but close friends of mine had. This is a hot topic around here! I'll write down the things that I know about it:

There is a tradition around Toe in Peru/Brazil Amazon region among a few tribes, it is a known visionary add-on but I can affirm for use it's not a "common" additive, and it's not considered "plain" ayahuasca when it has Toe on it - it's something done on specific purposes. I've known a person that lived in a tribe that used a different plant for increasing visionary experiences, but the paje (shaman) there used it in very few occasions, and I believe it's the same case for toe. The plant toxicity is not unknown, and I believe this is the reason people don't play with it without a good reason.

Unfortunately I don't have the information on the specifics of its usage.

Another known thing is how hard it is to harvest quality caapi in the jungle; I don't know if anyone here ever done it, it's not for the faint of heart; one has to go up trees high as buildings with no safety harness of any kinds, and up there face fierce ants and wasps to disconnect the vine from the tree. It's not a job for the lazy, and remember that when you put your hands in a good caapi from the forest (you can plant it and make it grow on concrete poles - only concrete handles the weight - making things easier, but still has to nurture it from 5 to 7 years). So, it's a well known thing that when a scammer wants to trick gringoes into buying ayahuasca, he must provide something that works. This is the bad side of datura usage: to fool outsiders.

After harvesting, the preparation work is not easy as well, even if you have a good engine shredder.

One can brew very weak ayahuasca, using only the "rama" (thin stems from caapi that are easily harvested), and add some toe to it: the person will have a visionary experience and think he had "great ayahuasca", no complains.

So, there's a scamming culture around Toe right now in the Amazon basin. One can know he had toe by a few things: very cartoonish, colorful visions, dry mouth, difficult in vision, long duration, mental confusion.

But it gets worse:

The worst ayahuasca group in Brazil, called "Ceu da Nossa Senhora da Conceicao" uses secretly toe in their ayahuasca for some reasons;

The first is to make people think they have a supernaturally strong ayahuasca for spiritual reasons (they're cheating)

The second is to take advantage of the mental confusion to preach their beliefs against other ayahuasquero groups - the good old brain washing - not a CIA style brain washing, but brain washing nevertheless.

I have at least 2 close friends who took part on their rituals and felt the classic effects of toe, and knew the moment they drank it that it wasn't plain ayahuasca.


So, my personal opinion is that outside a serious and traditional use that puts a meaning to it, toe is not a good addition to ayahuasca and offers a very different experience - instead of clarifying one's life, makes it more confusing.

Hence the usage for brainwashing...

Here's a video of the guy who puts datura in the ayahuasca secretly, showing his "psychic powers"

http://www.youtube.com/w...bedded&v=b1-PhAQN2ks

There are a fair amount of healers in the Amazon in Peru that will add small amounts of datura to the brew. Thats why i always caution people to ask specifically what is in the ayahausca. I have never drank nor would I consume ayahausca made with datura but have talked to people first hand that have and its never been a [positive experince.

Yes many cultures use deleriants as medicine, ie Aminitas, Datura, and some here enjoy them and get a lot from them. It comes down to personal preference but Datura can be deadly and not knowing your taking something like Datura mixed into ayahuasca can be a very scary hellish experience.

kambo is a deleriant?

It contains opiate peptides..producing sickness and then stimulation but I never heard of it being a deleriant.

Yeaaaa, I hesitated on that one as Im going off of watching people take it in a traditional manner last month in Pisac, as well as what they described. Sure sounds and looked like a deleriant but I don't know if its classified as such so I should edit it out. Kinda scared the piss out of me to watch. It does not look like a fun time the first 20 min.

I have heard of it doing all kinds of things from it producing opiate like effects to it being visionary to peoples faces simply swelling up. I dont have any clue personally.

I finally worked up the nerve to do kambo after watching my friends recieve the medicine but got Giardia parasite sickeness a day before my session and was way, WAY too ill to feel any more sick. I was equally relieved and bummed.

Mate its not a pretty sight, pissing, pooping and vomitting, moaning in hellish discomfort wishing to die, ans severe looking allergic reaction ballooning the face and hands like a bee sting allergy. The man administering it explains it as the worst 20 min of your life followed by a healing euphoric period. It does wonders for opiate addicts. Takes cravings away for about the same time as Iboga.

Anyway's...its not a pretty site. wish I just did it before I watched it being done!

I've tried Caapi three times so far and can already tell it's going to become on my favorite plants. One thing that I've been drawn to is the way people experienced with ayahuasca hold the Caapi in much higher regard than the additional alkaloids. I've been musing to myself that the reason Caapi seems to reveal the spirit realm with much more efficiency and clarity than other psychedelics I'm experienced with could be because our bodies have their baseline mode of sensory input and that by inhibiting the production of MAOs the endogenous neurotransmitters associated with receiving those types of signals are amplified. Totally just a theory I have but I'm very experienced with other psychedelics and find that it takes a very high dose for me to feel like the intelligent presence of the cosmic gravity is influencing my trips to a noteworthy degree. Like I said I've only had three attempts at using Caapi and it was powdered bark obtained from a vendor that may not have been supplying good vine, however on my last attempt I tried using some acid on the boils and got a reasonable breakthrough dose. After coming down from a few light hits of DMT I could definitely tell that I was beginning to enter a very interesting headspace and felt like I was almost able to sense spirits or rather other forces that had been languaged in the room I was in. It subsided very quick, however I did feel like it had the potential to become threatening. I've felt the Caapi cleaning me out and filling my stomach up but I've never consumed enough for the purge even when I tried to induce it myself.

The question I have is about dosage. Usually I won't hesitate to eat 5 grams of cubies or 5 hits of L but I'm very aware that this medicine isn't something I should screw around with. I've read some bad stories about experienced psychonauts that tried too much for an unsupervised session. Unfortunately I have no hope of taking this in a ritualized setting in the immediate future so I want to start off with a low dose but given my past attempts I'm afraid I might take too much once I obtain some more potent Caapi. Also in reference to the above paragraph and what you've said in this thread I'm looking for a dose that doesn't have too much DMT in it so as to not overpower the vine. There isn't a whole lot of dosage info online and while I've read that an analysis of the average dose of DMT in traditional ayahuasca ceremonies is 24mg I've seen figures anywhere from 100mg to 300mg on this forum (although I suspect the latter figures are because Rue may have been employed and it's toxicity requires a larger dose of DMT for a more psychedelic effect). On my next attempt I plan on taking 50g of Caapi with some fumarate DMT. Since you may not be familiar with the mg doses of DMT do you have any recommendation for what amount in grams of your chosen leaf would be a good light compliment to 50g of Caapi? If you do I can do the math out given the average alkaloid percentage in that plant.

"One thing that I've been drawn to is the way people experienced with ayahuasca hold the Caapi in much higher regard than the additional alkaloids. "

I dont and I am very experienced with ayahuasca and I dont think that is necessarly true for amazonians either. In many tribes caapi seems to be more like just an admixture to the tryptamines in tryptamine mixtures where both caapi and tryptamine plants are present..this is especially true for the case of tryptamine snuffs where the strongest ones in some areas always are made by tribes who add caapi to the snuff..but the snuffs are tryptamine dominant(and named after the tryptamine plant).

Still haven't tried Syrian Rue. I might after some more experience with Caapi although if there's any sort of credence to my theory the higher MAOI to tryptamine ratio possible with the vine could be important. I've also heard that THH is an essential chemical to the Caapi intoxication and that isn't found in Rue. If I'm correct it's because the THH resembles melatonin, although now that I think about it that might just be beta-carbos in general. jamie what exactly do you think of the character of Rue? I'm surprised to hear someone with experience praise it over Caapi because usually what I've heard is that Rue feels more erractic compared to the wise tone of Caapi. That's just hearsay obviously, I'm not trying to demean your opinion. Does Rue also have the purgative effect?

Rue and caapi have more similarities than difference in my experience. I dont really find one better than the other. I certainly dont favor caapi over rue. There is a lot of stuff written about rue from ayahuasca traditionalists that is just not true from my experience. I dont think someone new to all of this could tell the two apart, and to be honest I dont think most other people could either in double blind experiments. They are not identical but at least for me the feel of the experience and content is so similar I dont know if I would be able to tell the difference. I have had such vastly different experiences all with the same vine..and then there are other "ayahuasca" vines used in the amazon that definatly differ from B.caapi much more than rue does. So in some cases rue and caapi are MUCH more similar than even 2 types of ayahuasca.

"Ayahuasca" has become a generalized term/phenomenon in the west and that does not necessarily reflect it's presence throughout the greater span of the amazon. Even the use of ayahausca as a brew is a new thing in relation to how ancient the use of the vine is. It is used to make sublingual pastes mixed with tryptamines, snuffs.the vines is chewed before yopo, some tibes smoke the bark etc. I am sure it's use as a snuff admixture vastly predates it's use as a tea.

Also, the most recent data would suggest that caapi has very very little if any THH..and rue also has been found to contain traces of it. It is thought to be the long brewing process that coverts harmine I think into THH..endlessness should know more about this I think he did the work there. In theory this should take place with rue or caapi when brewed for long periods of time. Basically, THH is a product of the brewing process.

Hey! Nice to know that so many brazilians are really studying this subject!

sbarret, brother have you tried psilocybin mushrooms, curious to know your experience?

have tried ayahuasca in several countries, had many uneventful ceremonies.
like a disconnect with this medicine.

However with mushrooms the guidance and rejuvenation is absolutely amazing.

I've done Kambo a number of times ... I love the frog medicine! truly fantastic

Holy smokes, sbarret77 -- thank you so much for your generosity, you are a wealth of information. Your comments on "beings" vs "forces" and different, simultaneous cultural interpretations of these forces, really resonated for me.

I'm sort of new to this world of plant medicine so I am just humbly reading this thread with my eyes popping out of my head. Everyone's questions and insights are wonderful to read.

Thanks again, and hope to see you around here again, sbarret77! At least I'll be coming back to this thread for more info as I learn more.

Aloha, Thanks for joining us! I'm new too, I've participated in santo dame in the womb, and a few ayahuasca ceremonies, aswell as dmt and many psychedelics and plant medicines Thanks for your communication and clear information ))

Hey man I can't send you a PM back cause I'm a new member so i all just respond here Hey thank you for the kind words I really really appreciate it. As far as rejuvenation, absolutely. The afterglow from changa is unlike anything ive ever done. It literally feels like you come down and start life with a completely fresh perspective and a clean slate. The breakthrough will last about 10 15 minutes itself, but afterwards the trip will keep going like a VERY INTENSE mushroom trip but much more clear headed. It feels almost super human. I then like to keep taking small hits during the comedown to allow for introspection and integration I hope you decide to work with it.... I'll honestly never smoke freebase again. 10 minutes returning to baseline seems silly when you can smoke changa and have an incredibly powerful and personal experience.