I have very similar experiences with alcohol. Alcohol somehow seems just plain wrong to me. I'm talking about large doses. A couple of drinks once in a while don't seem so evil. However, I can't quite understand how people can drink so much of it. I don't see any point in getting so drunk that one can't walk, talk and function properly. And don't forget how much it affects one's health. I'm not even talking about the morning after.

It may be fun to get drunk a few times just to have that experience. After that I see no proper reason in doing it again.

I'm talking from my own experience. Everyone has their own story, so that's not a moral, just an opinion.

The hypocrasy in this thread is amazing. I dont understand how people (especially in this forum)can say one drug is better than the other. To say that people are disgusting or evil or whatever is rediculous.Any drug is bad if misused but to imply you are better than someone because they drink is crazy typical nexus elitism. Alcohol is a great social lubricant to bad some have never had the pleasure of kickin it gettin to know your homies with a few pints.

I wouldn't agree more. The "my drug is better than yours" connotations is something I try to avoid as much as possible.

Ahh, alcohol... my usage has been steadily and sneakily increasing for maybe four years after an impossible love. Cutting it back significantly lately and I like the increased clarity of mind!

I've seen plenty of heavy alcoholism in my life in close-up. My father literally drank himself to death (delirium tremens - not a pretty sight), my mother died of an aneurism - also alcohol related. So, it's a genetic burden. Reason enough to be extra careful, it can be truly devastating... always watch your back, it creeps up from behind.

But I'll never be a complete abstainer: the occasional great Belgian beer, yummy... and especially single malt whisky: smoky nectar of the gods!

I do like a drink now and again, it is a social lubricant par excellance...

...but I don't need to get shit faced at all...I like the buzzyness, if I drink too much the depressant effects kick in and I get sleepy, but I must say I've had some fun drunken times...

...but its not close to my heart in the way other things are..Its weird but I think using psychedelics has turned me off booze to some extent...when I'm really drunk I'm more aware that I have just poisoned myself, so try and avoid this...

However if one wishes to cultivate a relationship with alcohol, I would suggest brewing your own.

Maybe by keeping your own bees and brewing up some mead. Raw honey is full of good stuff, and the inebriation from mead is quite special.

In the west, mead is also one of the very oldest intoxicants used by mankind, for many, many thousands of years.

like your avatar, Banco... Naked Lunch, eh?
great flick, very strange;
such was Burroughs writing style, and addiction was a common theme in his stories.

Hey benzyme,

Yeah I've not actually seen the film, glad it gets your seal of approval...the book is really very very strange indeed, and I like strangeness, but it was too strange in a way I couldn't really assimilate...

I think the film (which would be very much illegal in every country if it was based on the book) is more kinda semi-biographical(ish), from the days when Mr Burroughs was a pest controller, a job he really dug...

He used heroin for most of his life, daily, and yet died of natural causes at the age of 89...

i highly dislike alcahol and its fx on our culture - truly a retardant said by Phlux

I totally agree with Phlux and 69ron. I haven't had any alcohol of any kind for a year now and my mind and body feel so much more functional for it, but even before i stopped completely i would only maybe have a beer two or three times a year so i thought it was pretty much pointless any way I don't take drugs only enthogens pure naturals everything else just harms you in one way or another.

Much Peace

They made a movie out of Naked Lunch? I had no idea. I simply couldn't read that book... too strange of writing style. but I'd like to see the movie.

I guess while I'm here I will give my two cents. I have seen all of the horrible things that people do to themselves with booze, I could sit here and type up horror stories, but I'm not going to do that. Lately I've stopped drinking everyday, which was an issue for me in the past, not like I'd get drunk everyday, but at least 2 beers after work. I feel much more clarity and my head is out of the clouds. It's pretty nice.

BUT I LOVE BEER. The city where I live has several microbreweries that produce some of the best tasting beer in the universe.

One more thing though... while I dislike the effect that alcohol has on society, and I dislike the whole party scene, I must say this: alcohol is NOT evil... people are evil.

If you don't believe entheogens are drugs, I suggest you re-acquaint yourself with the definition of a 'drug'. Deeply-held delusions ain't healthy.

Each to there own i just believe there is a big difference between drugs which in my mind are unnatural and enthogens which are natural. I don't feel disillusioned at all and my mind and I are very healthy thank you.


Much Peace

i just believe there is a big difference between drugs which in my mind are Synthetic and enthogens which are Organic
To quote McKenna, "Nothing is unnatural, but some things are more intelligent than others"

My 2¢

While all drugs can be misued, I believe that some are safer and healthier than others.

The physical effects of chronic or long term use of cocaine, alcohol, methamphetamine, barbiturates, and even benzos outweigh their benefits to me, thus I try and stay away from them.

I'm not saying they are better or worse than other substances, but they are certainly less safe.

Also I'm really sick of the word "drug" being thrown around to include every single mind altering substance. The connotations of the word are not good. The average Joe does not thing of nicotine, caffeine, or even alcohol as a "drug". "drugs" are bad, mmmmK?

My daughter came to me telling me that drugs are bad. I asked her which drugs she was talking about...she didn't know, just that drugs are bad. It is this mindset that I am greatly against. Abuse of many substances is very unhealthy, while others have proven to not impact ones health to any substantial degree. Is pot the same as cocaine? Is coffee the same as methamphetamine? Is alcohol the same as Prozac? All are drugs, but each is VERY different.

My birthmother, 2 years after I found her after a long search, expensive battles in courts to open my adoption, and years and years of heartache died from cirrhosis of the liver and pancreatitis directly related to her consumption of alcohol at the young age of 42. For this reason I am against it. I am biased, I realize this, but long term use of alcohol can and will kill. I guess the same goes for cigs.

My drugs are better than yours.

Ayahuasca, 'Shrooms, Salvia divinorum, Peyote...

All better than Heroin, Methamphetamine, Nicotine, Alcohol, Cocaine, Caffeine...

They ARE better... Better in effects, less addictive, positive health benefits.... they are better, period.

Get over it.

I like that quote from McKenna, its very true. I just like to see anything that is processed in a way that nature doesn't process enthogens as drugs and natural unprocessed substances as enthogens.


Much Peace

I also use the term psychoactive or centrally active compounds. I just use the term 'drugs' more often because it's more broadly understood. And I guess I hope that using the word in the correct manner (to encompass all mind-altering substances) will help break the irrational conception that "drugs are bad".

As you say, every drug is different, and so each must be considered on its own merits. But to claim that a whole class of drugs ('natural' substances or 'entheogens' are not drugs simply because some drugs are quite dangerous and people want to avoid any association between them is both asinine and misleading.




This demonstrates the irrationality of the doublespeak perfectly. I absolutely agree that alcohol can and does kill. Same for tobacco.

And yet, according to Aegle, alcohol and cigarettes are de facto entheogens. After all, they're natural, right? And yet, in this very thread, Aegle was claiming that she doesn't use alcohol because it's a drug, not an entheogen. Did I miss something here??? Last time I checked, yeast is a fungus.

Little-known fact: methamphetamine is a naturally-occurring compound. If you get your methaamphetmaine from Acacia berbeiri, does that somehow magically make it an entheogen?

And how about cocaine? All of the cocaine on the black market is derived from the coca plant (which has a long history of use as a tonic as well as entheogenic use. Since it's 'natural', is cocaine an entheogen? (And in case anyone needs reminding, the process of extracting cocaine is no less natural than the process of extracting DMT, the singularly unique and revelatory drug that gave rise to this very forum)

Or look at tobacco. It's been used as an entheogen for years, but some people will classify it strictly as a drug because of its detrimental health effects.

Whether or not a drug is an entheogen depends entirely on the context of use. Many people eat psilocybin mushrooms and have direct revelatory experiences of the divine, or at least experience a direct immersion in the ecstatic experience. Others eat psilocybin mushrooms and watch TV or movies.

Drugs have the capacity to be entheogens. Some have a much greater capacity for this than others.

I'm just sick and tired of all the damned hypocrisy surrounding this issue.

The people of this forum aren't stupid, so why is it that so many people want to put the issue in black and white? Especially the self-contradictory ones like Aegle here (sorry to pick on you, I mean no offense... you just kinda walked right into this).



This doublespeak makes no sense! Aristotle must be rolling in his grave! Let's review the logic of Aegle's post in plain terms:

* Assertion: Natural psychoactive substances are entheogens, not drugs
* Fact: Alcohol is a natural psychoactive by any definition (unless you consider fungi unnatural, in which case Amanita and Psilocybe mushrooms must not be entheogens)
* Logical conclusion: Alcohol is an entheogen
* Aegle's conclusion: Alcohol is not an entheogen; it's a drug

What am I missing here????????



Can't we leave behind the childish world of black and white? Life is full of gray areas. Embrace this; it's part of the cosmic Mystery dancing away the years of the universe.

Alcohol has a great capacity to be physically harmful. The decision not to use it is completely valid. In fact, not using it is completely valid regardless of the reason.... I don't eat mayonnaise, not because of any health effects but simply because I don't like it. I don't feel the need to justify myself by saying that mayonnaise isn't a foodstuff. I just don't use it.

The whole attitude of "my psychoactives aren't drugs, they're entheogens" strikes me a petty, puerile, irrational, and immature. And it completely misses the point. You may use your drugs as entheogens; that doesn't mean that they aren't drugs.

^^Yes entropy, agreed.

It also depends on the purpose of taking the drug. For example if you need a local anesthetic you have cocaine which is natural and from which the idea of localized anasthesia came out of. But cocaine has lots of well known side effects. They have now synthesized compounds that do the anesthetic effect of cocaine without the high, or addiction, or any other central effects part. So a synthetic compound is better then a natural compound for causing local anesthetisia (damn thats a hard word to spell).

The same goes for alcohol. There is no evidence that small doses of alcohol is dangerous in the least. In-fact it might be good for you. But it all depends on the dose and purpose.

okay check this out

An entheogen ("creates god within," en- "in, within," theo- "god, divine," -gen "creates, generates",[1] in the strictest sense, is a psychoactive substance used in a religious or shamanic context. Historically, entheogens are derived primarily from plant sources and have been used in a variety of traditional religious contexts. With the advent of organic chemistry, there now exist many synthetic substances with similar properties.
More broadly, the term entheogen is used to refer to such substances when used for their religious or spiritual effects, whether or not in a formal religious or traditional structure. This terminology is often chosen to contrast with recreational use of the same substances. These spiritual effects have been demonstrated in peer-reviewed studies[2], though research remains difficult due to ongoing drug prohibition.
Examples of entheogens from ancient sources include: Greek: kykeon; African: Iboga; Vedic: Soma, Amrit. Entheogens have been used in a ritualized context for thousands of years. Chemicals used today as entheogens, whether in pure form or as plant-derived substances, include cannabis, mescaline, DMT, LSD, psilocin, psilocybin, ibogaine, and salvinorin A.

vs

A drug, broadly speaking, is any substance that, when absorbed into the body of a living organism, alters normal bodily function.[3] There is no single, precise definition, as there are different meanings in drug control law, government regulations, medicine, and colloquial usage.[4]
In pharmacology, Dictionary.com defines a drug as "a chemical substance used in the treatment, cure, prevention, or diagnosis of disease or used to otherwise enhance physical or mental well-being."[4] Drugs may be prescribed for a limited duration, or on a regular basis for chronic disorders.[5]
Recreational drugs are chemical substances that affect the central nervous system, such as opioids or hallucinogens.[5] They may be used for perceived beneficial effects on perception, consciousness, personality, and behavior.[5][6] Some drugs can cause addiction and habituation.[6]
Drugs are usually distinguished from endogenous biochemicals by being introduced from outside the organism.[citation needed] For example, insulin is a hormone that is synthesized in the body; it is called a hormone when it is synthesized by the pancreas inside the body, but if it is introduced into the body from outside, it is called a drug.[citation needed]
Many natural substances such as beers, wines, and some mushrooms, blur the line between food and drugs, as when ingested they affect the functioning of both mind and body.


okay so cocaine, alcahol and nicotine are drugs, not entheogens right ?
dude seriously you need to take some time off the forums or somethings - no need to take this all so seriously and start lashing out at people - honestly dude relax.

or else im wrong - who here drinks in a spiritual context and feel it creates the god within ?

If that was directed at me, I think you completely missed my point about moving beyond the childish world of black and white.