None.


Nope.

That and an idea-addiction used to rationalize and justify.
No more or less than we do.


Yes and no, randomness and order are two related things like Yin and Yang, you cannot have one without the other.

True, but you can have the will to do so, and act on that will, and while the rest is hit or miss at least you stand a better chance of meeting a person when you have will and make effort, than when you do nothing.

Fate is met halfway by those who encounter it.


SOme report an increase in control type thoughts, in a few cases they can get incredibly delusional, which is funny because you can note that often the less control a persona actually has, the more control they suppose themselves to have...

Reality being an illusion is itself a rationalization of ideas and concepts, Illusion and non-illusion are related concepts, yin and yang. One cannot have dream without waking states, etc, so the very idea of something as unreal is only possible because of the concept of real. It is laughable that reality is or isn't an illusion. However in terms of terms, one cannot say reality is an illusion, for reality means real, so it becomes the math equivalent of saying 1 = (-1)

watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNDRzrMtGtY

That is a particularly lucid point you pose.

I would say: Reality is a point of view - particulary if there is noone else nearby -
reality is a cocreation of watcher and the observed entity (which I define as everything with intrinsic information.

Control gets us up in the morning doing the things we hate. It's not ours, it is "theirs". Moving the arm wherever they want. But nahh, they don't have complete control. Especially when we have these forbidden molecules

They=culture
Us=slaves

Some great posts in this thread.

I agree with the willow in the wind and the rock in the stream analogies. It's about finding a balance between letting go and exerting control. Most often our attempts to control anything seem futile. But it is a necessary function of the human existence.

When our desire for control gets out of control, we end up with some of the sociological problems we're dealing with currently.

We have very little control over our lives. That's why some say control or reality are simply illusory.

The relinquishing of control, or the obsessive desire for control, is what most people lack. It's a noble pursuit to wish to change the world for the better, to attempt to control the forces of evil. But can we ever achieve such a lofty goal?

Que sera, sera.

I found the wikipedia article on the neuroscience of free will to be very enlightening. http://en.wikipedia.org/...euroscience_of_free_will

I still struggle with control issues myself. I think it's the feeling of uncertainty I'm still learning how to accept. I want to survive. I want my kids to survive. I think it's in my DNA. I want to increase the probability of those things happening. I want to reduce uncertainty.

But in the end we don't have any control of the world around us and we have to accept our uncertainty as being part of the human condition. Pretending we have more control and more free-will than we actually have I believe is just a form of psychological repression. At least for me.

Again, because I don't like that feeling of uncertainty so I try to hide it from myself

But I'm working on it

So far as we can physically prove there can be no free will. The thoughts and stimuli which give rise to more thoughts and stimuli are all physical interactions beyond the control of anything but a potential god, if not nothing at all. To control anything inside this reality you would have to be immune to it's influence, which is hard to rationalize.

Of course we know in terms of our day to day lives it makes no difference. But everything is predestined. Perhaps not laid out in the future but it's all inevitable. Only what can happen does happen.

I know exactly what you are saying, but I came to a different conclusion. There's no way to prove it either way, really. I just really don't like the idea that I can't make choices. If I am a conscious being, and put in this world, but I don't have the ability to choose my destiny, to grow, to learn, and improve myself, all as I see fit, then what is the point of it all? What an awful trick to play on sentient beings.

I know it may actually be the way you say it is, but for my sanity's sake, I can't accept that. To me, the idea of the soul is the thing which does allow us to choose what my collection of atoms thinks about, and does. It is the intermediary which grants us sovereignty over our clumps of mass we call bodies.


On the topic of control, it is something I have given a lot of thought to. The truth of the matter is, we have nearly no control over anything. When you live on a planet with a chance of total destruction from something like a giant asteroid (as unlikely as it may be) you really have no control. One day the sun will envelope our tiny little planet. There's no control over that. I can control my car on the highway (to an extent), but I am one of countless others. Compared mathematically, I often control maybe 0.1% of traffic, probably less. The list goes on and on.

I figure once one realizes how little control and safety there really is in any of our lives, one reaches another level of freedom.

I chose to have coffee instead of tea this morning due to the stimulus of there being no milk. I forgot to buy some milk and therefore inadvertantly controlled my reality. Does that make me some kind of inept and forgetful deity?



I quite like the idea that i have ended up where i am by following a pre destined path rather than any judgement on my part: Good old fate. It does all the hard work so we don"t have to.

I dunno, you chopped my sentence in half If you are a god though you seriously need to step up your game, surely you have no need of milk or tea in the first place ? I shudder at the thought of living in a universe where it's god craves a caffeine fix.

A universe where god takes pleasure in a nice mug of Peruvian arabica each morning is my idea of heaven.

I like alot these analogies but i dont truly agree with them.
I think our consious mind is supposed to have some control and let other things up to the unconsious.

For example ive noticed if im with some friends and were talking about stuff like this, then i can choose to just listen and the conversation will go in one direction.
But if i choose to i can steer the subject into another direction.

Does this mean i control what we talk about?
No but i can def make some influence.


But i do agree that most important decisions should be left to our intuition or subconsious mind since that part usually makes more pure decisions instead of the shallow ego driven mind.

By the way, even if we can't physically find a mechanism for the existence of free will, that shouldn't negate the point (if such there is... other than those to which we personally subscribe) in life. For are we not part of that which happens anyway? Isn't it just as much worth celebrating to move along with this grand system of everything? It needn't be likened to a finless trout, forever knocked about. We are the trout, we are the stream. We just think of will in terms of ourselves trying to change the world. It's not even that the world changes us. The world changes, and we are part of it.

I am convinced of neither free-will nor fate but that there is a point where both must phase into the other. I am a hologram of flawed light, unique unto itself, trapped on a thin layer between ecstasy and desperation. The events which make up my life are all contained within my image and there can be no deviating from it. I am changeless, my imperfections immutable as are my strengths unerring in their brilliance, and shall do nothing with my own darkness but face it.

"Yes. The crown and the pavilion may be well cut each in itself and yet stand alien to one another. Once the first facet is cut there can be no going back. What was meant to be a union remains forever untrue and we see a troubling truth in that the forms of our undertakings are complete at their beginnings. For good or for ill."

Perhaps a bit of both are going on? That's how I feel.

There are things, as has been said here before, that are beyond our control: Like who we meet or who we fall in love with. There's no argument that we have no say in it. You may wish to meet kind, openminded people and yet run into masses of ignorant fools all the time. You may wish to meet a kind, honoust and passionate lover and yet fall in love with a selfish, deceptive and grumpy (and thus lousy)lover instead. It's not up to you.(Who you fall in love with that is; Wether or not you'lll enter into a relationship with them IS within your control)

But some things are defenitely in your control. When I was 16 I decided to start playing guitar. I had talent and a father who is a musician so that helped, but the decision to start and continue learning to play guitar was my own.
I'd say that decision was defenitely in my control. Now look at the guitar play itself; First I couldn't exert much control over what chords or notes I played. But with practice and time, that I chose to devote to playing guitar, I now have far greater control over what chords and notes I play on my guitar.

Now if you claim that all control is an illusion, then how would you explain me having 0 guitar skills at age 15 and plenty at age 28? Just a fluke? This for me is enough to prove that control, in it's entirety, surely isn't an illusion. It's just that we humans often delude ourselves to feel in control over matters we don't control.

Then there is the grey area between No control and In Control. Sometimes we are largely out of control, yet we can exert SOME influence and vice versa: Sometimes we are mostly in control, but not completely as other factors beyond us determine the outcome of things too.

It's not a binairy matter of "Control or no control?"
It's that we have control over some things and not over others. And everything in between those 2 extremes.