http://vimeo.com/77042748

Lecture by Michael Clark in Delhi, India.
Posted on Vimeo on October 16, 2013.


Thanks to the following blog for making me aware of this: http://www.lysergia.com/psychedelia/

Interresting. I allways found Amanita Muscaria to have been a poor candidate.

Ayahuasca makes more sense as it has also been proposed that Moses made Ayahuasca on the mountain and also that the Kykeon would have been Ayahuasca. This too points to the fact
that Ayahuasca was known among the ancients of the "old world", mostly in the middle east/mediterranean.


India is full of Acacias so it's not hard to conceive at all. Also India lies just east of Iran, so it isn't inconceivable that at least West India is full of Peganum Harmala too.

This combination of plants may also have been used by Moses as the desert between Israël and Egypt is also inhabited by various Acacia species, quite possibly also with Peganum Harmala allthough he may have used a different MAOI.

If the Kykeon indeed was Anahuasca too then they would've most likely used some sort of phalaris or other DMT-grass and most likely another MAOI> Allthough cultural and economical exchange between Greece & persia go back a long time ago (Zarathrustra) so it's possible the ancient Eleusians had Peganum Harmala seeds as MAOIs as well.

He rips Amanita to shreds in the lecture.

Well ive heard that soma is psychedelic cocktail containing a full spectrum dose of various psychs.

Ive read of all different variations but one i heard of had psilo mushrooms, amanitas, syrian rue and cannabis in it.

Ive actually done pharma with amanitas and cannabis and it was def up there with my most mind expanding trips.

ahh the title..this is what I would love to get away from..

these plants are NOT ayahuasca..any more than san pedro peyote.

Agreed. 'May have been an Ayahuasca analogue' or 'May have contained DMT/Harmalas' would have been more accurate. I doubt the people of the ancient Middle East had any access to Ayahuasca plants.

In any case, I doubt we'll ever know for sure just exactly what Soma or the Kykeon really were (at least not until I finish my time machine ).

Right, the blog I linked to uses the term anahuasca (I'm pretty sure I remmeber the lecturer referring to it as ayahuasca, though).

As I understand it, there's some discrepancy over the meaning of ayahuasca. It means "vine of souls" and it refers, specifically, to B. caapi. I question the idea that ayahuasca refers to the brew. I think that's a huge misconception.

As you can see below, there are a variety of pleasant, less ambiguous names for the brew. Why not call it one of those names?

Source for image: The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants. Christian Rätsch (2005)

"I question the idea that ayahuasca refers to the brew. I think that's a huge misconception."

A number of indigenous tribes call the brew "ayahuasca"..this is the very reason why western anthroplogists referred to it as "ayahuasca"..same goes for yage..I find it hard to imagine what part about that you find to be a misconception?

They could have just been referring to the caapi, as it was the base of the brew, and been ignoring the rest of the ingredients. For example, if someone rolls up a joint with tobacco, they can say "do you want to smoke some weed?" -- ignoring the tobacco. (Of course this would be in a situation where finding tobacco mixed in with joints is common and expected, otherwise that would be considered rude.) When people speak, they leave things out for the purpose of brevity. So, any accounts of caapi/P. virids mixtures: they believe that it is the caapi that is the "main attraction" and it is because of the caapi that they are even calling it ayahuasca: because ayahuasca specifically refers to the vine, B. Caapi.

Even The Encyclopedia of psychoactive plants has yage as a synonym for both its B. caapi entry and its ayahuasca entry, which is contradictory. So the people documenting this stuff really don't know what they're talking about.

There's concrete evidence that ayahuasca means "vine of souls." Saying that ayahuasca refers specifically to the mixture of caapi and P. virids is just sloppiness that achieved legendary status. The P. virids is just an optional additive.


Below quotes are from “The Plant Kingdom and Hallucinogens,” Bulletin on Narcotics (United Nations). Richard Evans Schultes (1970).

In 1957, the chemists Hochstein and Paradies analyzed "ayahuasca" from Peru, calling it Banisteriopsis Caapi, and, from the same region, yajé, which they attributed to Prestonia amazonica [DMT].
They stated that the natives of the Río Napo area "commonly consume a mixed extract of the B. Caapi and P. amazonica leaves in the belief that the latter suppress the more unpleasant hallucinations associated with the pure B. Caapi extracts

Nothing more than a suppressor, in this case.

B. caapi-only reports:

To this day, the natives of the north-west Amazon in Brazil and Colombia use the Banisteriopsis drink for prophetic and divinatory purposes and also to fortify the bravery of male adolescents about to undergo the severely painful yurupari ceremony for initiation into manhood. The narcosis amongst these peoples, with whom I have taken caapi on many occasions, is usually pleasant, characterized by visual hallucinations in colour, which initially is very often a shade of blue or purple. In excessive doses, it is said to bring on frighteningly nightmarish visions and a feeling of extremely reckless abandon, although consciousness is not lost nor is use of the limbs unduly affected

---

My own experiences from participation in many Amazonian Banisteriopsis-rituals might be summarized by saying that the intoxication began with a feeling of giddiness and nervousness, soon followed by nausea, occasional vomiting and profuse perspiration. Occasionally, the vision was disturbed by flashes of light and, upon closing the eyes, a bluish haze sometimes appeared. A period of abnormal lassitude then set in during which colours increased in intensity. Sooner or later a deep sleep interrupted by dream-like sequences began. The only uncomfortable after-effect noted was intestinal upset and diarrhoea on the following day. At no time was movement of the limbs adversely affected. In fact, amongst many Amazonian Indians, dancing forms part of the caapi-ritual.

Chen and Chen offered a good summary of Banisteriopsis hallucinations: "The most outstanding feature of caapi seems to be its ability to produce visual hallucinations and dreams in men. The Caucasians who took this preparation apparently confirmed the Indians' claims. Thus, Villavicencio experienced an aerial voyage, in which he saw the most beautiful sights, and Spruce quoted a Brazilian friend as saying that once, when he took a full dose of caapi, he saw all the marvels that he had read about in the Arabian Nights pass rapidly before his eyes as a panorama; the final sensations and sights were horrible, as usual. Cardenas made seven observations on men, including himself, with the decoction in various doses. All the subjects appeared to have optical illusions of different degrees. No excitement was recorded in any case."

Hochstein, F. A. and A. M. Paradies, "Alkaloids of Banisteria Caapi and Prestonia amazonicum ", Journ. Am. Chem. Soc. 79 (1957) 5735-5736.

Chen, A. L. and K. K. Chen," Harmine, the alkaloid of caapi ", Quart. Journ. Pharm. Pharmacol. 12 (1939) 30-38.

ayahuasca refers to the vine and brews with the vine..end of story.

If there is not vine, its not ayahuasca.

"Even The Encyclopedia of psychoactive plants has yage as a synonym for both its B. caapi entry and its ayahuasca entry, which is contradictory. So the people documenting this stuff really don't know what they're talking about."

Lol, okay. Peyote is also called wirikuta and hikuri..I guess the people who documented it as "hikuri" didint know what they were talking about either..same with the guys who documented "epena" snuffs as "camala"..wait, what?

It's called language groups and dialects. "Ayahuasca" is quechua..and it most certainly DOES refer to both the vine, and teas made from vine in the amazon, traditionally.

I dont even understand what your point is here..you think that indigenous amazonians will agree that phalaris or acacia and rue combined in a tea is ayahuasca? Good luck. Ayahuasca is a culturally relevant term..what you are doing here is called cultural appropriation.

That's what I just said; however, I said that when referring to the vine in the form of the brew, they are also just referring to the vine and are choosing to verbally exclude any additives. And if the brew contained only caapi, it would still be called ayahuasca.

Following up on this, the term anahuasca is inaccurate because ayahuasca does not mean the combo of DMT and MAOI. Ayahuasca is just one of many synonyms for B. caapi. There is no word for the special combination of DMT and an MAOI.

"There's concrete evidence that ayahuasca means "vine of souls." Saying that ayahuasca refers specifically to the mixture of caapi and P. virids is just sloppiness that achieved legendary status. The P. virids is just an optional additive."

Dude YOU called these other things that have NOTHING to do with cappi, or any vine "ayahuasca"..and you are calling other people sloppy for correctly referring to both the vine and brews made from the vine ayahuasca?

"Chacruna" means admixture. Nowhere in the amazon does anyone call the brew "chacruna".

Just because ayahuasca means "vine of souls"(btw thats just one translation of what it means) does not mean that traditional peoples dont call both the vine and the brews made from the vine "ayahuasca". I really dont get your logic here.

How do you know what "ayahuasca" means? Have you gone out to each and every tribe, and asked them what ayahuasca means?..in all the dialects?

When they add chacruna to the vine, often they still call it "ayahuasca". No need to over complicate this.

How any of this relates to calling plant mixtures from other continents "ayahuasca" is what I dont understand.

Jamie's right

Its technically incorrect to call all of these other things "ayahuasca" (even if it is convenient to throw them all under one umbrella term)

I really don't understand the confusion?

You didn't interpret my statement correctly. I stated that yage is listed as a synonym for two completely different entries in the encyclopedia. You merely gave two synonyms for peyote....

The fact that it's listed as a synonym for both a vine and a multi-plant decoction would seem to indicate that there's that discrepancy I mentioned. Westerners were hanging out with the natives, while they were standing around throwing the various plants in the large pots, and the predominant word being spoken was "ayahuasca." So they thought that ayahusca was their term for the brew they were making. In actuality, the natives were just placing a lot of importance on B. caapi, (which they refer "ayahuasca" ). This was misinterpreted to be a reference for the complete brew.

The truth of my idea above is clear, in light of this long-standing discrepancy.


I mean look at this nonsense. Are we to assume that the indigenous peoples were so unintelligent that they referred to their brew with a "slightly misleading" name? My theory that ayahuasca never referred to the combination is much more sound. As stated below, ayahuasca means what it means; but the latter assumption is just based on a silly miscommunication.

The name ayahuasca is from Quechua, a South American Indian language: huasca means “vine” or “liana” and aya means “souls” or “dead people” or “spirits.” Thus “vine of the dead,” “vine of the souls,” or “vine of the spirits” would all be appropriate English translations. It is however slightly misleading as a name, since the vine Banisteriopsis caapi is only one of two essential ingredients in the hallucinogenic brew, the other one being the leafy plant Psychotria viridis, which contains the powerful psychoactive dimethyltryptamine (DMT). It is the DMT, derivatives of which are also present in various other natural hallucinogens, including the magic mushroom of Mexico, that provides visionary experiences and thus access to the realm of spirits and the souls of deceased ancestors. [ridiculous assumption! See the B. caapi-only reports in post #9]

Ralph Metzner. Sacred Vine of Spirits: Ayahuasca (2005), Introduction

It's pretty simple. Ayahuasca is the name of the brew and also the name given by a lot of tribes to the caapi vine. Back to the Soma!

I think it would have had to be a much simpler combination of 2 plants/fungi. My theory is that they were preserving psilocybin in honey, mushrooms started to run out, eventually the honey ferments and creates a "psychoactive mead". Soma? hmm

I think you're forgetting the etymology of the word ayahuasca.


The name ayahuasca is from Quechua, a South American Indian language: huasca means “vine” or “liana” and aya means “souls” or “dead people” or “spirits.” Thus “vine of the dead,” “vine of the souls,” or “vine of the spirits” would all be appropriate English translations.

Ralph Metzner. Sacred Vine of Spirits: Ayahuasca (2005), Introduction

I'm writing a book on this topic called Gaokerena, or The Shamanic Samaritan. I have a lot of info squirreled away. I believe it is possible to prove that John the Baptist, Simon Magus, Dositheus, and Jesus & James consumed a version of the kykeon during proto-gnostic Naassene ceremonies (the Naassenes traced their lineage to James brother of Jesus). The Naassenes were avid explorers of the Greek Mysteries in Alexandria and the Refutation of Heresies of Hippolytus contains a translation of a Greek original document elaborately and intricately comparing the Phrygian, Isis and Osirian, Samothracian, and other mystery initiations. With the expulsion of the Jews from Alexandria in the 1st century returning Jews and Samaritans would have brought back their cultic knowledge, and built the Ophite gnostic cults as a Semitic version of these Mysteries. There is a grove of Faidherbia Albida in the Shimron nature reserve in Israel, all genetically identical clones, which seems to show the species was transplanted intentionally. The seedpod of F. Albida is red and curled like a snake, which I think is what the red worm ouroubos in alchemy was supposed to represent.

The Zoroastrians and Mandaeans have extensive Tree worship themes in their rituals, and their are numerous similarities between these faiths. The Mandaeans had a holy tree called the Sindarus which has not been properly identified yet, but is assumed now (without proof) to be myrtle. They also claim Jesus was a member and trace their lineage back to Egypt and have Babylonian religious elements remaining in their faith from thousands of years of history. Drawings of this resemble Acacias. Syrian rue was also a magical plant to them and texts are devoted to it. Gaokerena was the holy tree of the Zoroastrians, it was refered to as the white haoma, probably because F. Albida has white bark. The leaved twigs are soaked in a bowl of water before the water is drank in Mandaeanism, myrtle is used now. Peganum harmala is used as an incense in Zoroastrianism. This combination of inhaled harmala smoke and cold water infusion Faidherbia Albida phyllodes (or perhaps Acacia Nilotica) was the ayahuasca-like kykeon/haoma/soma brew in my opinion. The Naassenes eventually became the Mandaeans, the priestheed of the Mandaeans are still called the Nasorai or Nasoreans. their faith is a composite containing Babylonian, Egyptian, Judaistic, Kabbalistic, Zoroastrian, and even Neoplatonic elements, and when forced to pick a holy book for recognition by Islam, chose the Corpus Hermeticum, stating they followed Hermes Trigimestus. The Naassenes are the only gnostic group the Mandaeans could have come from, being so wildly eclectic and ancient. There are other similarities besides.

For this reason I am very eager to read on bioassays of Nilotica or Albida material, especially phyllodes and the gum. Psychoactive Albida gum would be an easy way to turn water to wine, if old tales are literal and not invented, and Albida is harvested locally for gum. Exudate gum would dissolve in a cold water infusion as well I think. I think Acacia Nilotica is more liklely then Albida because it is found in India as well. Desmodium Gangeticum could have been the other Soma, it is still called Somalatta and has 5meodmt and is green and golden, as described in the scripture.

Proving this thesis takes a lot of research to make it bulletproof and not easily picked apart so the going is slow. But if you've ever wondered if the Prophets consumed a dmt-laden mixture to converse with YHVH this is the most probable route and explanation. It would be great if I could sell the idea of this book for a forward advance to give me undisturbed writing time, but fringe religious seculative essay doesn't pay very well I think.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
a mind is made of words
words are made of fear

Tea is a drink made from the leaves of the tea plant.


Care to comment?

Also, this post.

I've always though Amanita muscaria a pretty unlikely candidate for Soma.

Dale Pendell mentions somewhere the possibility of it being P. harmala + Ephedra, which sounds a bit scary...

Pendell's reference is David S. Flattery, 2004, "The Soma Plant Illusions" which he cites as a manuscript in "Pharmako/Gnosis", revised paperback edition, 2010.

"Some of these combinations are dangerous, particularly combining harmel (or any other MAOI) with amphetamines or amphetamine-like compounds. The sympathomimetic effects of such compounds, with their usual metabolic degradation inhibited, could be unpleasant or life-threatening. Nonetheless, some have combined MDMA with harmel, reporting enhanced and longer-lasting effects. Certainly, the dosage should be reduced. Small quantities of khat, Catha edulis, along with harmel, are not at all unpleasant.

However, the last combination that I would ever consider trying personally, harmel and ephedra, may have been employed by the ancient haoma-drinkers (Flattery, 2004). This mixture is unattested as such, but they were both around, both are still present in the haoma ceremony, and somebody must have tried them together. I would want a beta-blocker on hand. But then, I don't care much for ephedra, particularly the sympathomimetic effects. Some do. And there, for sure, is a drug to make a man draw his sword and slay a bunch of enemies!" (Pendell, "Pharmako/gnosis (2005)/2010 p.205)