Is this thread worthy of a Sticky?
The topic is of great importance for historical accuracy and to clear up any misunderstandings surrounding "Ololiuqui".
Also I have seen far too many online vendors attempting to sell Rivea Corymbosa as Ololiuqui...
This is VERY misleading and I believe it is almost insulting to history and the tribes who held these plants sacred in their religious practices...

the leaf morphology between the plant in the picture and the one in the drawing looks totally different to me.

Here is a something that will add further confusion to this topic. Some Convolvulaceae do contain tropane alkaloids.

Convolvulus arvensis, for instance, has white flowers and contains small but notable amounts of tropine, pseudotropine, and tropinone. This plant isn't native to the New World and I don't know if these compounds are anticholinergic though.

Calystegia sepium, another white flowered bindweed, contains calystegines, a group of polyhydroxylated nor-tropanes. This plant does occur in Mexico, but I can't find much info about the pharmacology of these compounds besides that they inhibit glycosidase, glucosidase, galactosidase, and other enzymes that metabolize sugars to varying degrees.

Since it's clear that bindweeds can biosynthesize tropanes, it's hypothetically possible that ololiuqui could be a bindweed and that its effects are due to tropanes.

But I still think that Turbina corymbosa has the strongest argument for its identify as ololiuqui. One thing tha I don't think was mentioned yet is that ololiuqui is specifically a type of seed. Most tropane-containing plants contain tropanes through out the whole plant.

It may be possible that ololiuqui is from a tropane-containing plant and that the other parts of the plant were referred to by different names. But if this were true then you might expect evidence of this. And there is none that I'm aware of.

The seemingly fetishized aspects of the seeds of the ololiuqui plant point to a plant that only contains significant quantities of actives in the seeds.

I agree. It would be hard to mistake the pinnately compound/pinnatisect leaves of Solanum seaforthianum for a simple leaf like that in the painting.

It's also interesting that the painting seems to show a plant with a tuberous root. From what I can find, Solanum seaforthianum doesn't have a tuberous root while turbina corymbosa does (I think?).

But this doesn't prove that Turbina corymbosa is ololiuqui. Plus, the rest of the plant in the painting doesn't look like Turbina corymbosa. It does kind of look like a Solanum species though.

But for all we know, this could be a painting of the wrong plant.

I still haven't seen an "arguement" for Turbina corymbosa...
I would like to compile a (COMPLETE) visual chart that clearly shows differences and similarities, variables, and reasons why sources may be un/reliable.
Also, just because "only the seeds were used" (WHICH MAY NOT BE TRUE), doesn't mean the rest of the plant can't contain sufficient levels of psychoactive substances...
Question deeper, people!

If you haven't seen this argument yet, then you just don't want to see it, because there are plenty of them in this thread already


For one, the supposed painting of ololiuqui is poorly drawn, vague, and could easily be of the wrong plant. Bernardino de Sahagún wasn't a botanist. What if he was given wrong information or was just mistaken in his identification?

Bernardino de Sahagún was very prolific. How are we to know that he put much time and effort into his study of ololiuqui? This probably wasn't a priority of his given that it was part of "pagan" rituals. And this brings us to the the problem of cultural bias and even deliberate misrepresentation of native cultures.

These are all possible ways in which the Florentine Codex could be unreliable regarding this issue.



While these statements may be true, they aren't supported by any evidence that I know of. If you have some evidence in mind, then please post it. To be fair, you're the one trying to overturn the currently held beliefs, so the burden of proof is on you.

Good point! I suppose I do need to supply some compelling evidence to support my claims...
Well, I'm not really interested in identifying Ololiuqui because I believe that is impossible for many reasons.
The main purpose of this thread was to open up a question to a VERY obscure topic.

I just wanted to point out how the experiences seemed more parallel to a delirium, rather than the known effects of LSA and the seeds that contain it.
I hope that others can contribute some more information!

This topic is just way too complex for me to identify a single plant as Ololiuqui.
There are simply too many variables!

My explanation is that different tribes used different plant seeds.

I am not questioning the spiritual power behind LSA and Rivea Corymbosa!
I've had many profound experiences with these plants!
From my experience, the descriptions of the effects barely matched (if at all) the effects commonly reported with LSA/seeds.

Maybe a bindweed variation that is similar in appearance to R. Corymbosa, biosynthesized tropane-alkaloids as well as LSA!
Way too many possibilities for me to narrow down...

I've read many trip reports using LSA that sounded like delirium. LSA can be very uncomfortable and scary for some people. A lot of people don't like it at all. If you imagine a strong and scary LSA trip with a lot of body load, then you almost have a deliriant trip.

I have a lot of experience with diphenhydramine (a deliriant), datura, morning glory, and HBWR. LSA is nothing like a deliriant in my opinion, but I can see how someone who has a bad experience with it might think of it as a deliriant.

This brings me back to the idea of personal experience and bias. The description of psychoactive effects will vary based on person's experiences and biases. If you find a person who's never used psychedelics and give them a high dose of mushrooms (or any psychedelic), they will likely have a hellish experience that they might describe as delirium.

Then there is cultural bias, which has already been discussed. The Catholic church has always been opposed to the use of hallucinogenic drugs, and at the time of the subjugation of the New World they saw it as a sacrilege. Hallucinogens were the work of the devil. So you have to consider this in any description of their effects from this time.

There is going to be a cultural bias toward describing hallucinogenic experiences in a negative and deliriant way when the description comes from a 16th century priest during the Inquisition.

Yes, LSA can be very unpleasant for the person experiencing the effects.
The effects are typically sedating both physically and mentally.
The vasoconstriction causes physical weakness and soemtimes even fainting.

I am actually experience some pure LSA right now with a good friend. (Not that it really matters)

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=10634

1571-1578 - Franisco Hernández - Court physician to the King of Spain, he was trained in botany and medicine, and embarked on the first scientific expedition to the New World from 1571 to 1578 to explore the native plants and medicine. Portions of his work were published in 1615 in Mexico by Francisco Ximénez (who had translated the manuscripts from Latin to Spanish) and in 1651 in Rome by Federico Cesi (in the original Latin) as Rerum medicarum Novae Hispaniae thesaurus. Ximénez took a dim view of the indigenous divinatory plants, commenting in the 1615 publication that "it matters little that this plant be here described or that Spaniards be made acquainted with it." In addition to recording information about the uses of ololiuqui, Hernández also provided an illustration of the plant (see below).
Quote:
Ololiuhqui, which some call coaxihuitl, or snakeplant, is a twining herb with thin, green cordate leaves; slender, green, terete stems; and long, white flowers. The seed is round and very much like coriander whence the name (in Nahuatl, the term 'ololiuhqui' means 'round thing'Pleased of the plant. The roots are fibrous and slender. The plant is hot in the fourth degree [Note: this refers to the humoral theory of medicine] . . . . The seed has some medicinal use. If pulverized or taken in a decoction or used as a poultice on the head or forehead, with milk and chili, it is said to cure eye troubles. When drunk, it acts as an aphrodisiac. It has a sharp taste and is very hot. Formerly when the priests wanted to commune with their gods and to receive a message from them, they ate this plant to induce a delirium. A thousand visions and satanic hallucinations appeared to them. In its manner of action, this plant can be compared with Solanum Maniacum of Dioscorides.

His account of the experiences are slightly more reliable because he is trained in botany and medicine.

"If pulverized or taken in a decoction or used as a poultice on the head or forehead, with milk and chili, it is said to cure eye troubles"

It says it can be used to cure eye troubles.
I cannot find any evidence that LSA or related alkaloids cure eye troubles.

Atropine, which is present in Datura and similar plants, is actually still used medically today to treat various eye conditions.
http://www.netdoctor.co..../atropine-eye-drops.html


It also acts as an Aphrodisiac.
LSA is a potent vasoconstrictor.
This is very contradicting. How can a man have sexual intercourse when he cannot maintain an erection?
Datura and Brugmansia are well known for being potent aphrodisiacs, due to their chemical components.
http://psychotropicon.in...atura-stechapfel/2872-2/

"Formerly when the priests wanted to commune with their gods and to receive a message from them, they ate this plant to induce a delirium. A thousand visions and satanic hallucinations appeared to them. In its manner of action, this plant can be compared with Solanum Maniacum of Dioscorides."

He states that it induces delerium.
He doesn't state that it "feels like delerium".
It is described as being very visual and frightening in that sense.
Also he directly compares its actions to "Solanum Maniacum of Dioscorides".
I cannot find much information on this plant, but here is an interesting page.
It seems it is Belladonna or Deadly Nightshade.
http://homeoresearch.blo...m-maniacum-furiosum.html

I can't find any pictures or definite descriptions of the root of Turbina corymbosa, but other than possibly the root, his description fits Turbina corymbosa.



Not all ethnobotanical uses of a plant can be ascribed to actual pharmacological activity of the compounds in the plant. Some times there is no evidence a plant actual does what a native culture believed it did.

Then there is also the possibility that other compounds, perhaps even non-alkaloidal compounds, could explain the plant use in maladies of the eye. It could be something as commonplace as mucilage that is helping in this case.



This is harder to explain. But one thing I will point out is that I'm able to maintain an erection while under the influence of LSA and I have experienced aphrodisiac effects from LSA. My experience may be atypical though. It might be due to the fact that I'm very healthy and have excellent circulation. Maybe the natives also had good enough circulation for the vasoconstrictive effects not to matter.

I don't think this tips the scales away from oloiuqui most likely being Turbina corymbosa according to the evidence we currently have. The devil, hallucinations, and sex are all seen in the same light (or at least similar) in the Catholic church, especially at that time. And while Hernandez wasn't a priest, he was definitely submersed in the Catholic influenced culture of Spain. This could just be another case of cultural bias or even purposeful misrepresentation of native cultures as a form of propaganda.


But he still uses christian dogma and imagery in his description of the effects, so his description of the effects is likely biased. I doubt he tried it himself, and I doubt he understood the difference between a psychedelic and deliriant. This concept wasn't even a formal concept yet, but I'm sure the natives had some concept of this idea.

Most of the chroniclers who railed against this" diabolic seed" represented the ecclesiastical power of Spain, and Christian persecution drove the native cult into hiding. Corroboration of the identity of ololiuqui waited for more than 400 years. All evidence from the literature and several early, though crude, drawings, especially the excellent illustration provided by Hernández, indicated that the plant must be a morning glory. Botanists first identified ololiuqui as a morning glory as early as 1854. Later reliable Mexican botanists, notably Urbina, insisted that ololiuqui was, in fact, a morning glory - Ipomoea sidaefolia - even though no member of the Convolvulaceae had been found in use as an hallucinogen in Mexico and no intoxicating constituents were known to exist in this family.





Read the rest of Schultes' essay on Turbina corymbosa: The Plant Kingdom and Hallucinogens (Part III). Bulletin on Narcotics (United Nations). Richard Evans Schultes (1970).

(Parts I & II)




Exactly. Morning glory seeds have never produced penile shrinkage in me the same way amphetamine does.