http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism

I've been pondering what I'd label my beliefs as. I don't know why this is important or even if it is, but I thought of the word mysticism. Previously I identified with shamanism but I would not consider myself as such by any stretch, so i seek something else to succinctly sum my beliefs up. For some reason the term spiritual doesn't fit as I feel we are all spirits, so it seems redundant.

Upon looking up mysticism and reading the wikipedia entry for it (link placed at top and bottom of post), I became more and more interested in what they are actually calling mysticism. Defining it seems to require a wide swath of encompassing definitions, yet acknowledging and even trying to define the common denominator between all these experiences weather religious, meditative, entheogen induced, etc.

Most notably was the study of the blood flow in the brain during a mystical experience by Andrew B. Newberg and Eugene G. d'Aquili. It showed that during meditation there is a spike in reduced activity in the brain section understood to control our sense of physical boundaries. This, they concluded, refreshes the flow of sensory input that is normally blocked by having limits imposed or defined by this area, creating a perception of oneself having no boundaries. Effectively, or only possibly, revealing the mechanism by which our perception is filtered into 5 senses and are kept in check.



Another section of the wiki entry that was intriguing is as follows:


"James emphasized the personal experience of individuals, and describes a broad variety of such experiences in his The Varieties of Religious experience. He considered the "personal religion" to be "more fundamental than either theology or ecclesiasticism", and defines religion as

...the feelings, acts, and experiences of individual men in their solitude , so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine.

According to James, mystical experiences have four defining qualities:

Ineffability. According to Jamesm the mystical experience "defies expression, that no adequate report of its content can be given in words".
Noetic quality. Mystics stress that their experiences give them "insight into depths of truth unplumbed by the discursive intellect." James referred to this as the "noetic" (or intellectual) "quality" of the mystical.
Transiency. James notes that most mystical experiences have a short occurrence, but their effect persists.
Passivity. According to James, mystics come to their peak experience not as active seekers, but as passive recipients.

William James recognised the broad variety of mystical schools and conflicting doctrines both within and between religions. Nevertheless,

...he shared with thinkers of his era the conviction that beneath the variety could be carved out a certain mystical unanimity, that mystics shared certain common perceptions of the divine, however different their religion or historical epoch,

According to Harmless, "for James there was nothing inherently theological in or about mystical experience", and felt it legitimate to separate the mystic's experience from theological claims. Harmless notes that James "denies the most central fact of religion", namely that religion is practiced by people in groups, and often in public. he also ignores ritual, the historicity of religious traditions, and theology, instead emphasizing "feeling" as central to religion."
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there is more i could mention and found interesting (such as the natural vs religious mysticism along with the intro/extrovertive mysticism sections.), but i'd like to hear other opinions and thoughts on this.

I'm liking this term mysticism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism

Pretty interesting corner of a global wiki style encyclopedia eh?

When we use subjective terms it is difficult to really pit one word against another.

There is real internal alchemy, where things become separated and refined but that is a thing to learn on your own. I don't think any reasonable person would attempt to teach (other than with fly-by examples in a casual way) internal alchemy with words. Being an example is very effective if you are receptive to these things. That's why these mystic teachers and gurus exist. Because being an example in such a fine degree is rare and people are fascinated with all types of rare things.

I would say 'being' is objective and because internal alchemy is an activity for the being, it is an objective activity. There is wrong alchemy, and by using alchemy to create consciousness it becomes easier to be objectively correct. Basically outside the arena of words. (For instance this forum doesn't really exist, but one can work on his or her own internal alchemy without excluding this forum)

It's basically because words fail that mysticism as an enigmatic concept even exists and therefore the 'mystic'

A good example of internal alchemy would be to refine in yourself a spirit of spirituality and a mystery of mysticism that way the two 'words' would be separate but the spirit and mystery would be harmonious. IME the words become pretty unnecessary at that point, I don't really use either word very much.

The words spirituality and mysticism are helpful at the used book stores or the genre category of audible basically if you're looking for something. And there is a funny phenomenon that when you start following the mystical impulse you learn a lot of historical information. Like 10,000 different historical anecdotes eventually boil down into the modern day mystic. Not to say the modern day mystic is good or bad, simply that one has to be receptive to learn from the being of anybody (anybody).

Like here's a good anecdote: Leonardo Da Vinci claimed to have learned the most from other people's mistakes.

History seems to be ourselves' way of teaching itself.

There is a concept called a "magnetic center" and it basically a certain growth within your being which requires being fed influences that are higher than the simple influences of life on earth. 'A' influences are influences towards personal security, a healthy body, sex. Basically whatever A influence is always wants to be fed more A influence in either/or quantity or quality .

B influence is this thread; clearly it is irrelevant to anything but your magnetic center.

I also have a magnetic center and at some point I learned that a magnetic center can evolve (become more refined by practicing internal alchemy of being)

It becomes a new node at the pinnacle of your heart which is capable of both observing the objective qualities of things and of receiving divine influence (C Influence) directly. All of this stuff I'm saying I owe to a certain 'being-example' from history named George Gurdjieff


I've been studying someone that is considered a 'mystic' named Gurdjieff for about two years now and I think there is no better avenue to pursue (besides your Self or maybe DMT/Salvia) than figuring out what Gurdjieff was all about (at least if you have the mystical impulse)

Also there is a pretty good website about him where you can learn his ideas in a linear and brief summary format, learn the context of his teaching facilities and context of his books. I would highly recommend following the Gurdjieff thread because it's the only thread I have found which assists one in refining the magnetic center into it's evolved form.

http://ggurdjieff.com/start-here/

Mysterious.

They call them the mysteries for a reason i suppose.

Batfly, what are your thoughts on the topic? as opposed to wiki quotes.

cubeananda: i apologize as i'm at work about to wrap up and didn't have time to read your post. I will once home! Although your observation of subjective terms is exactly why i started this search and probably why i'll never finish it!

Al K Lloyd (love your screenname!): I have read that mysticism is never to be confused or associated with mystery. i tend to think more of mystics and those who have seen into the mystery, oh, i just did the same thing now. lol. See my above comment addressing to cubeananda for an answer, kinda, lol. i'm still forming my thoughts. i don't like dogma, i'm very scientific. with that i rabbit-holed to new age, learned a lot i had misconceptions on, and the to eclecticism. which seems great as i tend to cut and paste ideas and theories and pick out what i can connect or ring "true" to me. i also don't identify with religions. i think just as the sun sets and rises that it doesn't matter what one believes. these things or whatever is beyond us, or is us, and doesn't matter the mode of which we recognize it ( prayer, worship, attending in mass, adhering to strict practices.) i feel it's very personal.

but i must go and wrap up here at work, and would love to explore all this more in this thread and think it's a great discussion!






eclecticism: Religion

In religion, Eclectics use elements from multiple religions, applied philosophies, personal experiences or other texts and dogmas to form their own beliefs and ideas, noting the similarities between existing systems and practices, and recognizing them as valid. These ideas include life, karma, the afterlife, God and Goddess, the Earth, and other spiritual ideas. Some use a mix of Abrahamic, Dharmic, Neopagan, Shamanism, Daoic doctrines, New Age, religious pluralism, and Syncretism. Eclectics are most interested in what really works, personally and communally.

cubeananda: WOW! just amazing! first of all, thank you so much for that post and the time you took to make it. a lot of what you posted resonated with me a great deal, both in how i feel and as totally new information. Internal alchemy! I love it! i have so many thoughts from your post and i'm going to try and relate them to you. bear with me as it may be disjointed and jumpy as i try and collect, put into word what i thought in response. this may be long but such a reply is deserving. amazing how long it takes to type out concepts that happened in the flash of a moment!

i want to be clear this is all what i thought as reading your post. not just adding to the thread. i'll save that for subsequent posts in this thread.

EDIT: this can also be answered with this post, not fully, but a lot. thanks for asking with interest.

ok...

ever since a teen i would focus and change things in myself i deemed unnecessary or i didn't like. an example was embarrassment. i killed that one while in high school and it unleashed my whit and humor. not caring what others think of me is also one of those, which a lack of embarrassment does not negate. i feel, after your post, that i indeed identify with your, previously new to me, term of internal alchemy.

i am at a point in my life where i've noticed being dishonest is the worst thing one can do to others and especially themselves. not acknowledging a doubt about a person, place, or thing would fall under lying to oneself and to the person you are doubting. i'm fresh out of a very abusive marriage to a very very old friend. i was in love with her for about a decade unbeknownst to her. then things just perfectly started to fall into place. However, not completely genuinely. At the time, i now know, i was trying to be something i wasn't stemming from not wanting to have another failed relationships. i was still also healing from my first divorce, which also helped in distancing myself from me. i thought i was trying to figure out how to be a man (grow up) and be appealing to the object of my decade long affection, ie: keep her. ie: changing myself before she'd find out that my interests where things she would find childish/results from probing her as i do everything (EVERYTHING). things changed though dramatically once in the relationship (even before marriage). how she treated her friends was a stark contrast to her lover(s). it actually got physically abusive bad, form her end only. but all kinds of abusive bad. false calls to the cops while i was sleeping abusive bad. such is the nature of bipolar women off their medication wagon and onto their alcoholic wagon. i digress...

that back story comes to now as i've been moved out for half a year and have decided months before that to never be someone i'm not! trying to change things you ENJOY about yourself, that was bad internal alchemy! i've never heard it put that way but makes so much sense. i hope these wrong changes i was trying to make (basically lies to myself making any further actions and statements lies to others) are an example of what you might have been alluding to with bad alchemy. i can also think of many other forms of bad internal alchemy involving a spiritual sense.

i was never really into religion or spirituality before ~2008. for a very long time i would have identified with atheist, as i was into science purely. that strangely has led me to a very spiritual path. i do have to say that a past with drugs and psychedelics had a major part as well. drugs were a bad part in that internal alchemy, but not psychedelics. i just wasn't ready to go as far in as i did (mushroom trip) in such a reckless fashion. lol, that was bad alchemy itself along with internal. what i learned though from all those experiences is also a validity i think towards the feeling that i was getting a glimpse of something, another place, or even a taste of death in a way.


before my the last wife, i was sharing trip stories with a buddy at work ( 2008 ), he introduced me to Castaneda's books and the spirit molecule. that all peaked something in me that felt like truths/validation when applied to my experiences and thoughts. although i'm always a bit leery but i also believe my own unfinished thoughts.

i'm also very artistic and i always seek out new media, tools, methods, techniques, for artwork including drawings, cg 2d, 3d, physical sculptures, servo robotics, halloween props and displays. it's all just for hobby. i can relate to your notion of new nodes at the heart as when i feel creative i just search out methods to accomplish my vision or goal. i apply this to what i want in life and now i'm starting to with what i want out of myself. i am very much into the notion that what you think you become or even manifest. for the last few years that very notion has been displayed before me to be true. to the point of meeting one of the authors of "the secret" years after thinking just after watching it, "if this is real i want to meet one of the people who wrote the book this is based on!" This was in an extremely skeptical mocking tone, yet with a very big hint of sincerity. that subject matter and question has stuck in my head and it happened, and because i noticed we had the same exact phone at a conference i was working

this, what you think you become, can work negatively as has been proven to me as well. in the example of my marriage before, i wanted someone for ten years, had to be someone different to be with her, and i got her. boy did i get her. boy did i think that was what i wanted and boy did i also get what was completely wrong for me by lying to myself to make it happen! it was the fear that led to a, "well, you are this far, and you thought you were in love with her for so long. you can't waist all that. you got what you wanted for so long. don't loose it this time. you might be too weird a person to find another anyway." i repeated and latched on to the wrong thoughts. i was loyal but to a person wrong for me by being someone i wasn't.

now i have a girlfriend who is amazing, smokes with me (mj only as i haven't tried spice yet)that the ex hated. she has been very very receptive to all my beliefs and who i am. it's new to her and she finds it fascinating. i'm not compromising my goofiness or deepness. my love for video games to art to musical tastes to interest in shamanism/mysticism/whateverism is all not compromised. not compromising who i am yet still thinking of what i want and going after it is all honest and resulting in a wonderful new life in so many ways! honesty, effort, positivity, openness, and just so much more is just all so true to me. i'm slowly realizing my hobbies are what i love and i feel i won't be 100% to myself if i can't find a way to live off my art. i have no time for it now. and when i do i have no money for supplies. my job has season even though it's full time. the politics of it also rubs me raw. so this will be in part. it's a big thing, and i'm realizing i need to just stop thinking it's impossible, that my art will always just be hobbies.

...U*()*&*@^%*(%@^*(&^&^%$%^EDFGHJGKJLFY*(^@()*&B^H(*COYHN)%(*O@R>>>>>?>.........

(that was me absorbing and making connections of more of the words you wrote while reading them)


and science, oh that jovial jester quantum physics, is just becoming so amazing and also fitting in with my psychedelic experiences, readings, interests, thoughts, and beliefs. amazing where my life is. how it is. and it's getting better. my gf feels the same as she started being positive, honest, and true to herself! we happened from it all, and it's crazy good. doubts are even recognized, communicated, squashed, and very often are transformed into a new discovery of some commonality we can then share. sometimes new to either of us, as in trying an interest of the other's.

this just all boils down to internal alchemy. thought is probably the most internal of all things right next to your pure self/energy/divine oneness/consciousness/whaterness. thoughts are probably used by your true self/god self as the bridge between energy and the universe aligning to manifest "reality". This is such a simple thing if you think of you, using yourself, since i believe everything and everyone is "god", as the tools for alchemy. internal alchemy using your thoughts, efforts, beliefs, honesty to make it work. 100% of everything can only result in 100%. if you live 100% how you want to, in the moment, reacting 100%, you get 100% of what you want. the universe knows no lies. therefore your lies can manifest. perhaps including illness. because you are focusing on them, thinking them, giving them attention, taking the place of positive thoughts, thoughts of what you want. as a former hypochondriac, among other many fears that actually did happen till i decided to change my fears, i believe this to be even more evidence of my beliefs. sometime i feel i can sense the puzzle pieces.

i just cracked my knuckles, rubbed my face, and said to my girlfriend, "wow, i'm just pouring my brain out here." i think you just helped me out with explaining things i never knew how to start before on this forum that i've been wanting to share.




i also just remembered, i first read "It becomes a new node at the pinnacle of your heart which is capable of both observing the objective qualities of things and of receiving divine influence" with I instead of It, to read...

"I becomes a new node at the pinnacle of your heart which is capable of both observing the objective qualities of things and of receiving divine influence"

leading me to interpret that as, in my universe you are now in my life (on this forum that doesn't really exist) because of the nodes of my heart leading me here, to research what i did, and share it here, prompting your reply. that would make me a node as well in your heart to you!

then i re read it and thought it was a nice serendipity that still made sense.

Thanks for the reply.

I suppose that in a lot of the books I have read the term mysteries is widely employed in relation to mysticism.

Specifically this seems to be more for topics relating to Hellenistic mysticism, for example the Eleusinian Mysteries as so named and I associate them, perhaps erroneously, with mystical practices. In particular as someone who feels an affinity with Demeter, who I view as real or extant, I find the concept of ceremonial practices relating to her to be mystical in a rather definitive way, though my use of language tends to be rather inflexible insofar that I have difficulty with the concept of personalized definitions and so employ words so as to utilize their definitions in a very mathematical and non-personalized manner. This of course arises from my high functioning autism.

In terms of relationships, despite them being over all good or bad, abusive, productive etc, they tend to in many cases distract individuals from spiritual paths, though not always. It seems this arises specifically as a distraction.

I suppose this implies by way of progression and implication that regardless of relationships or other facets of life, mysteries, or rather mysticism, requires attention, that is to say that in order to pursue such things we must not be distracted.

So I have another question, it has two parts:

If you could ask any question and have it be answered, what would it be?
The second part of the question is the answer.

AKL I think I might have a form of autism too, so you are forgiven.


Yes batfly, I can see what you mean with the serendipity.

There are many nodes on our emotional center, each one has an affinity for a certain type of energy.


The lowest nodes are the designated receptors for the essential emotional energy which provides a context or base for whatever goes on in the emotional center. The lowest node in the microcosmos man's emotional center is called "the instinctive mechanical part of the emotional center" or if you use the deck of cards it's called the 2 of Hearts. This type of node does not have a programming which would allow it to modulate energy in any way. If the parts lower than the emotional center (instinctive and moving center) are working right then the 2 of hearts shouldn't create any problems. That being said, it does create a certain influence in us when it is active. If the 2 of clubs (2 of instinctive center) has to release gas out of it's anus then the 2 of hearts will be happy and will "vote" to produce a positive emotion in a higher part of the emotional center. All of the other nodes in the various centers (such as the instinctive or intelectual) in man generally (due to bad alchemy) are affecting the nodes in the emotional center in an ununfied way and so the majority rules. You can think of the 2 of hearts as generally playing the role of (perfect)!representative for the instinctive mechanical parts of the organism.


Between the 2 of hearts to the 10 of hearts we can say there are 10,000 possible nodes (after factoring in the lack of unity in average man)

The pinnacle node which I referred to grows as what we can also call 9 of hearts (emotional part of the intellectual part of the emotional center)

Between those two we are actually capable of developing nodes that we associate as being our friends our music our lovers our groovy states, our experience of or lack of anxiety all these things that have been called in another language the 10,000 entanglements. These entanglements are driven by imagination(illusion). So in a sense, yes I am a node in your heart and you are a node in mine. 'You' can be associated by any one of the colors of the rainbow and you may never actually know which color I see you as. In the end our communion is imaginary both by reason and by sheer divine force. But reason is capable of creating the reality god desires, as you described. And there is a long way between reason and sheer divine force.

The 9 of hearts in me may be more refined than it is in you. Let's just say it is for the sake of example.

In you it less refined, it is still a perfectly beautiful creature but it's focus is more dispersed and it has received fewer amounts of highly refined substances. Really, luck is the single most important factor when it comes to looking at the difference between us. (And it's only luck if there is a valuation for the 9 of hearts)

(For the sake of this example) my magnetic center has evolved into a true 9 of hearts. The magnetic center didn't go away, but it lives in a lower realm. This lower realm is the realm of the subjective 10,000. We can visualize the way an osprey dives into the water as what it's like for me to begin formulating words. I move out of objectivity into subjectivity and after all there must be a reason for it. That reason is so the 9of hearts can find food for itself. Both worlds exist simultaneously, it is right alchemy to create a dynamic in which the lower serves the higher.

Besides luck, the other reason my 9 of hearts is more refined is because I know an extremely high-level 'being-example' personally. If, as I said, the 9 of hearts is capable of both observing things objectively and receiving divine influences it does the latter because of the presence of divine influences. If there were no divine influences the 9 of hearts would continue its job just observing things objectively. It is merely a seat for the divine. If I recall Egyptian mythology this is described as Isis having a chair over her head. Osiris then transcends himself by sitting in the chair. The 9 of hearts is a female apparatus and has been depicted in pictures as female characters for 30,000 years at least. Osiris is basically the same as 'alchemist' or 'magician'

I guess that's where the difference between B influence and C influence lies.
B influence either serve A influence of C influence. It is unstable. It degrades. B influence can be wrong alchemy fueled by imagination or it can be poorly understood A influence. It becomes A influence or it is completely obliterated because there is no use for it.

C influence basically is the reason any heart can become a seat for Osiris. If a person accumulates more possibilities to become a habitat for divinity, C Influence (and C influence is capable of seeing possibilities within a quantum field) actualizes those possibilities to the greatest degree they possibly can. I'm using strictly the word C Influence (clincal term) because to my feeling it is the most refined term I can use in this situation.

So our magnetic center lives in B influence until it starts receiving a signal from C Influence. If C influence doesn't detect any possibility for evolution in an individual the magnetic center degrades into a simple emotional center that ultimately serves A influence (the lower) Often wrong alchemy comes into the picture here and things are artificially preserved as B influence when in reality it is a modulated form of A influence (marketing spirituality etc.)

When C detects a possibility for evolution, generally the magnetic center grows and develops nto a form which depicts the particular essence of a person (though when wrong it reflects the false personality of a person)
So that node is basically an unfocused flashlight which attempts to digest everything it can 'see' into a more refined substance by bringing what it illuminates to the attention of the other parts of a person (instinctive, emotional, and intellectual various parts) those other parts work somewhat together to create an energy(substance) which is intended to charge the flashlight.

When there is enough light coming out of the flashlight, C influence manifests in the form of shocks to the organism. Shocks are basically an impression that the magnetic center picks up which ultimately traces back to direct involvement with an 'extant', conscious being. A sort of conscious being which exists as something like AKL described as Demeter. I'll continue to call it C influence.

If your flashlight was capable of seeing the perpetual 'shock' it would be receiving divine molecules. That would be the evolved form of a 9 of hearts (although that type of being is much more simple than we are, so I suspect the chicken came before the egg)

Take as much as you can of this into consideration, stay keen towards shocks and good luck with your practice.

When it all boils down to it, I think 'mysticism is gnosis' and it's as simple as that. Many of the mystery schools seem to use their "mystery" techniques and knowledge as a means for achieving gnosis, though this is not an absolute statement.

AKL: my question would be a battle between what, why, and how, which to me are almost all the same things. these have always been the question. i used to give myself headaches as a child trying to figure out what was beyond space, when did time start, if god exist where'd "he" come from, etc. my question boiled down would probably be, "may i have all the true knowledge that i can handle or deemed to be the amount appropriated by something higher?" by have i don't mean i'm not willing to go searching.

also, i agree that when things are not in tune it can and will be distractions to further and spiritual path. i am of the type, i at least think so far, that i want knowledge of another realm i've glimpsed, weather real or not, but also want a normal life with a family. this society as a whole (U.S.) is what i have odds with. my girlfriend now is not inthe way of research as i'm given plenty of space. there are times i feel my research shuts her out, but i love time with her and giving her attention so i make time for it. but i do tend to spend WEEKS researching things at a time. i just wish i could read about 10 things at once. that would be grand!


funny, i've had several people say they think i'm near autisti. perhaps high functioning autistics are higher state beings rejecting the bullsh!t, if i may be so vulgar, of the mass of much more common lower state beings and society. who knows, but i always find myself bewildered by such things a machoism, alpha maleness, social hierarchy, corporate ladder climbing, greedy politics, sales in general, lying of any kind (it's a shame we have to lie to protect ourselves from our own public servants that we pay with our hard earned taxes when we are otherwise law abiding!) and so many other things. i can understand them, but feel dirty and perplexed when having to participate in any such modalities. my dream would be to work form home living off the demand for the creative things i produce. i even love creating things to others' specifications with the challenge of a deadline. that, to me, would cut so much stress from my life and mind while opening up more time to explore myself, life, and spirituality better. i'm sick of hiding myself to make money in this imaginary system of value exchange. how can we put value on someone's time?



these nodes are very interesting and so completely new to me! cubeananda, i feel the desire to look more into what you recommended. your words are again making sense! i have another thread here i'd love to have your input on. most notably posts 7 and 8 but previous ones have some good background too. in them i had a light vision (as in light, medium, strong) with only canabis in my system, but it was in relation to DMT as explained to me by "them". not sure if this was me being open to c influence and it responding or if i was just stoned out of my mind. it felt very real at the time though and externally originating but happening internally.

i don't know how to exactly comment of the nodes, and i don't want to go spouting thoughts before i look more into it as it's so completely and refreshingly new. isn't novelty wonderful?! compounded novelty is all my interests even when worn (as in wear and tear) to repetition (process of research, acquiring skills and tool sets, and finally the usually arduous process of creating). anyway, all you say is very intriguing and makes a lot of sense. i'm not sure what the deck of cards references or if it's just a visual aid.

i think i understand about higher and lower influences. perhaps this stage in my life i'm paying more attention and slowing down to find out what influences are influencing what, why, and how to proceed. before it was all reaction. and sometimes a created false reaction to hide the genuine reaction to to any number of insecure social fears. but as a younger person new to experiences in this life, i couldn't even fathom what happened to me, let alone how to react, to tragedy and betrayals. now i know to take it all in while being calm, have the emotion, not react right away (unless of course in real danger) and process it, then proceed. without all the tragedy in my personal past, how would i know ways to deal with it in the future? this has built a strong sense of self worth and respect i highly lacked. i also feel i know now, being through so much, what is really worth even just thinking about, let along putting effort towards. the old adage of "choose your battles" comes to mind. i used to dwell. oh the dwelling was such horrible self inflicted trauma worse than the trauma itself (almost). wasn't worth the time it took to dwell, the people, the situation, my torment, all not worth. but thanks for this shiny new backbone!

sorry for jumping to my past experiences as examples all the time, but it's all i have for comprehension until i further research these nodes and internal alchemy ideas.

would you be able to elaborate on the shocks? is this a feeling? like an actual shock? could it perceived as an initial repulsion, fear, in the abdomen or self? can't quite explain it but i think anyone who has had reality questioned with psychedelics knows what i'm alluding to. please do elaborate.

again, thank you for your time Al and cubeananda!!!

hmm, i like this too! as in, any spiritual or divine knowledge (gnosis) is a mystery until understood. science and cell phones and these horse-less automobiles i suppose could be considered mystical to someone without knowledge of them before. i know these are crude examples of a subject that is unprovable or unable to be proven false (outside of science currently) and therefor maybe it couldn't be considered mystical anymore if there was a general understanding by the mass populous unless labeled as mystical sciences. then again alchemy fits the bill here also. mysticism + science = alchemy (?)

i like things boiled down, and 'mysticism is gnosis' is such a great reduced brew!

Right, if you were to go to a "mystery school" today the more advanced members would be less concerned with mystery an alchemy (not that it goes away) than with gnosis.

Btw If you were in a mystery school you would just call it a school.

Take the statement Mystery + Alchemy -> (goes to) Gnosis.
Also consider the law Knowledge by 'Being' is Understanding ( K x B = U)

Mystery exists only when C influences are occurring in an individual and the magnetic center is detecting them.
Alchemy on the other hand can only be refined past a certain degree when there is a school, gnosis in others provides the example/tools/capital energy to begin further refinement in one's self.

If one is in a school the teaching should be considered truth, not because it is true, but because the teaching acts as the medium for other more advanced students to show you their level of 'being'. This facilitates the transmission of gnosis to occur more and more deeply as alchemy in yourself becomes more refined.

If you take the statement as: Another person's level of being + Alchemy -> An increased level of understanding in oneself.

An increased level of understanding in oneself is a relative thing, while gnosis is an objective thing.

But where does the Mystery come into this system? It is the factor of a teacher. If there is a school there must be a teacher. Basically it is the presence of Gnosis in thee teacher which is supposed to provide the mystery to the school system. This way students can take the teacher and teaching (mystery + alchemy) and use it to receive a transmission of Gnosis.

All of this is bound to be interpreted in various ways. The only reason I wouldn't be taken literally is because the interpreter is relying on his imagination in order to create some sense of what I'm saying. And of course I'm trying to express ideas which are most likely unfamiliar.

But I do mean a literal school, on earth, with a human teacher, a concrete up-to-date teaching lead to real objective Gnosis.
Metaphorical schools in imaginary or intangible places with various interpretations of teacher and Teachings built upon imagination or out of date teaching only lead to relative increase in understanding at best.

But these ideas only seem offensive to a Buddhist (even if he is not offended) because the higher levels of alchemy are only made available to those within a real School.

If everything I've said so far doesn't lead to a state of no-mind, it needs to be understood further or has yet to be digested, more internal-alchemy needs to be applied, and if C influence provides the 'shock' You will understand Gnosis.

A shock is simply when an external force provides a shock of either energy or experience at exactly the correct
http://ggurdjieff.com/start-here/

another awesome reply! it is most certainly unfamiliar but not off putting. more like a seeing a few sections up close and i need more info to get the whole picture. when i have more time i will absolutely check out the 'start-here' link. Thank you for providing that.


for some reason i thought of the school and how the teacher doesn't lose mystery. even though they have knowledge of the mysterious, they must be able to analyze and then relay in a cohesive comprehensive manner to their students. i don't know about anyone else, but i tend to learn and also come to new realizations when having to teach or relay advanced concepts. since everyone is different someone's misunderstanding could lead to rethinking of something is search of a way to explain it so it's relatable, and therefore find a deeper understanding from a reverse engineered alternate angle comprehension.

Basically, how the student can teach the teacher with their inquiries and turning the teacher into a vehicle of knowledge.


i really like the knowledge x being = universe hmmm, would it be true to say mystery is the precursor to knowledge, and alchemy is the precursor to being? mystery is the process of gaining knowledge as a path in front of a man is unknown but that compels him to travel it rendering the path no longer a mystery, therefor it's now knowledge. alchemy is the process of being as it's a development of technique and skill thereby then BEING a person who has these skills as a man who wants to go on a journey become a journeyer by the very act of starting a journey (or an alchemist being one by the very act of practicing alchemy no matter the level).

therefore i could surmise that:

someone who wants knowledge of the mystery of themselves must develop the technique to explore themselves with internal alchemy leading to gnosis. The totality of a person with the knowledge of themselves through alchemy and the integration of it results in them BEING a mystic. By BEING each thing just by starting it they understand it because they are a practitioner of it.

i can think of so many scenarios the give as example of this description. the most relative i think to this forum would be:

a person extracting dmt from plant matter (practicing alchemy becoming an chemist) from a desire to gain knowledge (mystery) by exploring their conscientiousness through expansion (internal alchemy/next "level" alchemist) to a level of revelation by achievement of desired knowledge through a breakthrough experience (gnosis). The interpretation, incorporation, impartation of this makes one a Nexian (mystic). All Nexians UNDERSTAND!