Why even bother with a belief set to begin with? Isn't that limiting? Why not just remain relatively agnostic about these things and avoid solid conclusions?

Anyways there does seem to be some obvious reasons behind why someone might view aspects of your experience as somewhat atypical..Here is a quote of yours from the DMT paper thread:



I think most with a thorough psychonautic background will probably agree that emotion is often a major part of the experience; particularly empathy, love, and cosmic joy for example, but that is just my opinion. To me this seems more like an aspect of your experience as it unfolds rather than merely a part of your "belief set", as you said above. There is nothing wrong with this, people are just wired differently. This is not an attack on you, just an observation- and one which reflects what you have told me in PM about your experiences (you noted no mental alterations, or anything at all apart from visual aspects, as i recall)


I agree with your points on "shamanism". I was speaking very generally about how there are some interesting parallels across disconnected cultures- particularly how they often regard that state as having a similar level of validity or "reality" to it. But I'm confused why this area is suddenly such a foreign concept to you, considering you just made a thread on some of these parallels across cultures yourself, and said you could even write a book on it...https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=516073#post516073 (great thread btw). Anyways, all of that is sort of besides the point I was trying to make there (by analogy), so i don't see the point in continuing discussion on that here.



Where have I rejected your experiences or beliefs? Disagreeing with some of your critiques of Laughing Cats DMT paper, and disagreeing with your logic that a DMT religion is emerging, doesn't mean I "reject" your personal experiences themselves man. I doubt our views and experiences are even as different as you seem to think... I also don't mean to imply that I reject your experience because of the noted lack of emotional content- which is often a central part of the psychedelic experience in general IMO. But this does not make these experiences somehow invalid in my mind. What I do disagree with is how you over-generalize your experiences onto others by citing the 20 or so people you have turned on to dmt.

If you disagree with me on the idea that emotion is often a big part of these experiences then that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree. And please don't think I'm implying that I believe emotion will always be a big aspect of the experience for everyone, every time...



Again, where have i rejected all of your "statements, proposals perspectives, and experiences?" Your heavily exaggerating here. I don't even know what your beliefs on the nature of the experience are to begin with! lol. I think our experiences and views are probably more similar than you think. Pointing out one way in which your experience of psychedelics seems to differ with what i consider a common theme shouldn't be confused with me "rejecting" it- regardless of whether or not it even differs to begin with...

It seems like a cop out to accuse someone of religious fundamentalism and closed mindedness just because they disagree with some of your opinions. As you can see not everyone agrees that a DMT religion is forming (although it could be cool...heheh), and believe it or not many of these people have vastly different opinions on the nature of reality, the experience itself, and the purpose of the universe.

I never implied that people are open minded all the time, just that there generally is a higher level of open mindedness and diversity of opinion here than on any christian forum, for example. Consider for instance the number of times we have heard someone say that DMT seems to give them more and more questions than answers? Or the dozens if not hundreds of discussions on the nature of the experience, reality, consciousness, and the cosmos?..(all filled with different opinions).

Asking me to go through the forum and cite instances of open mindedness seems silly...

btw, its a cult... not a religion

Also, I have to echo the other question above: Why a dmt religion? Many of us explore a wide variety of psychedelic plants and substances...

"Consider even the emphasis of this site, can you find an analogous site that is dedicated largely to a single molecule, like mescaline, LSD or another? I cannot. "

Well there is the shroomery...mycotopia...ayahuasca forums...and a forum on iboga...for starters

DMT is my "religion" into experiencing that I *might* know that I do not know that I know that I know. As an ex 110% nihilist that is plenty good for me; a plenty good and plenty terrifying catalyst of life-trans-formative knowing of unknowing that no religion or Science could ever prove or disprove; I am not even sure I want to see how much more there is that I know that I do not know that I know!

I think everyone "learns" the "lessons" differently. I don't see how a "religion" could be formed around it - maybe a gathering of individuals or what outsiders looking in would call a "cult", but DMT Religion? It's all meaningless semantics in the face of a self-transforming puzzle cube.

Speaking of cults, when I search for DMT lately on Youtube (yeah, I do not know why I do that, either) I keep getting ads for "Scientology", anyone else getting that?

How do you feel about seeing that there is an emergent religion from DMT Albert?

It seems to me that a lot of members see religion as dogmatic, organised and the cause of many atrocities. Although religion may add fervent zeal to these atrocities i think that we would find other excuses to be nasty to eachother if it wasn"t in the equation.

I see your point about a new religion emerging but not necessarily a DMT religion. Maybe DMT could play a part as a sacrament. I have heard it referred to as a sacrament no end of times on this forum. Communing with the spirit, the source, the unified field or just the feeling that there is something way bigger going on just behind the curtain. It"s all God as far as i can see. I also think that we do get influenced by eachother"s posts and that there is nothing wrong with that if you gain something positive out of it.



^^^^^^^^^^^If that isn"t Jesus claiming that he is the unified field/source and that there is no need to be organised and go to church to experience him/god/us/everything then i am a monkey"s uncle.

Maybe it is the religion of "hey we dont quite know what"s going on but it"s good and if you don"t believe then that"s ok".
Maybe it is religion as it is supposed to be. An evolution. Maybe it is the religion to end all religions just like the war to end all wars.

I haven't had time to get caught up on the rest of the thread in it's entirety just yet, but I wanted to address this quickly.


As previously mentioned: Mycotopia & Shroomery dedicated to psylicybin/psilocin-containing mushrooms, Ibogaworld devoted to T. iboga and ibogaine, and The Dextroverse devoted primarily to dextromethorphan.

I am sorry Anrchy but i want nothing whatsoever to do with a religion that has beating animals as one of it"s tenets. Where"s the empathy??????
This is a step in the wrong direction as far as i am concerned.

No no, he's holding "The Machine", and that horse is in hyperspace.

My eyes hurt , too many words to describe some very basic
Points . I'm not sure what the underlining thrust is anymore
An emerging dmt religion ? Personally I'm a fan of the no expectation
Approach and not buying into any one belief or interpretation .
All theories provisional that's important . I find a lot of attachments and human
Constructs being projected onto dmt experiences .
What is it minus all human belief structure imposition ? But then who am I to judge .
It's been six years on nexus before I finally encountered
Someone with the same kind of experience that I've been having
Consistently for years.


Albertloyd what is your basic stand on dmt ? ,this is unclear to me at this point .
I'm gathering that your at odds with what your considering to be an emerging belief
Structure , correct ?

If constantly deconstructing and questioning and re-evaluating your own belief system can constitute a system of belief, or a religion, then i am in agreement with the OP I guess. That is the only consistency I have witnessed here, beyond small pockets of diverging minority beliefs, some more vocal than others, admittedly.

The polls quoted by AlbertKLloyd are such an incredibly small sampling of the population here that they are, for all intents and purposes, statistically insignificant. Unless he can provide some that aren't?

JBArk

Can you find at any of those sights a claim like this as a fundamental premise:


even 4-HO-DMT does not have the same claims being made about it on the same scope and level.

You do not understand what I am saying.
It is not about the majority of DMT users at all and I have not made that claim.






I have not shared my beliefs about DMT and religion, please do not suppose you know them.

Belief sets are unavoidable.
Even those who claim to not have them do.




If you and I see the same movie, and you respond emotionally and I do not, does that mean we each saw a different movie?
Emotional response is a part of the experience, but it is largely a response.


I did not detail my experience, correct, but I left a lot out,, you can presume my experiences are atypical all you want, but they aren't.


It is a subject that i am actively engaged in the study in and I do not share the same belief about parallels. My beliefs about this are more specific and not simple and you are right that this is a side topic.



You have categorically dismissed them as atypical, this is a rejection of them as normal, for something that is incredibly varied.



"
Pretty much in every response.
You fail to consider so much of anything i share that saying you categorically reject anything I state seems valid to me. If I told you the sky was blue you (and Snozz) would both argue I as wrong!



I have the same question.

I thought it was clear.
I view it as valid, legitimate and beneficial in terms of transformative potential.
I think it is an incredibly positive thing that also can play a role in the legalization of the use of DMT in a spiritual context outside of native religions involving ayahuasca.



That it is a powerful psychedelic molecule having a range of applications.

I have stated where my beliefs differ from the set, it is that I believe DMT to be neutral, neither inherently good or bad, not positive or negative.

The religious set maintains however that DMT is inherently good, positive or productive.

If you do not believe that DMT is inherently good, then you are not an adherent of the religion. You must have faith in DMT as good to qualify.

I totally agree.


The Born Again Christians I am friends with say almost the exact same thing. Actually that argument is used by pretty much any religious person, that their beliefs stem from "personal evidence" can you find a faithful member of a religion who does not make that claim?

I do not agree with that at all and never said such a thing.

I didn't say you'd made any claims, I said that I was referring to the majority of DMT users I've interacted with. You seem to have gotten the wrong end of the stick.


Your beliefs are evident in your writing, as is your experiencing of emotional affect in response to those who present information contrary to your model of reality.

Not really looking to get into a back n' forth with this, but you pretty much dismissed my response through assuming that I haven't understood what you're saying. Fair enough...

Please leave me out of this.

You have ignored my posts, dismissed my apologies outright, and accused me of having some personal crusade against you. In an attempt to wave the white flag as vigorously as possible, I have ceased posting in your threads.

As such, I would humbly request that you not drag out my name and cart it around when you feel it suits your own purposes.

I don't want there to be animosity between us and have attempted to take action towards that end. Please work with me on this.

You simply have not understood what I was saying.


You assume too much.
I have not presented a model of reality, nor has anyone presented information contrary to it. Mostly there has been a sharing of opinions, not ontological claims.


Done.

I guess im not in the religion then. I have no belief sets towards dmt except i believe there are multiple possibilities as to what it does.

I do not believe dmt is good nor bad, in fact that isnt possible. A chemical is just that, a chemical. It induces an experience that can be seen as good or bad depending on the person.

Yes, and, according to Graham Hancock, the Aztecs, while they were cutting out the hearts of thousands of people a day, used psilocybin mushrooms, evidently accepting some very bad advice from dark entities. These substances can be used how ever, and by whomever, good or bad, and for whatever purpose, dark or light, that the person chooses. This is a Freewill Universe. And freewill can be a bitch.

And once you declare a religion, and develop a set of beliefs, the religion is dead (oh, there may still be churches with millions of sheeplike followers, but the original concept for the religion is gone, corrupted into another form of politics). Belief impedes release.