Have been wondering about this for a while since first smoking the spice.

Thoughts?

You forgot the agnostic option: "I do not know, and until I find proof of either one of them I will leave it in the middle".


Kind regards,

The Traveler

oh yeh. oops. get off the damned fence aggys!!

I think if we could really see/feel/experience/comprehend what is going on in the infinite layers and expressions of a cell, a tree, a body, an ocean, grain of sand, ecosystem, neural system, etc, and the seamlessly interconnected web they all weave together; we'd realize that its all hyperspace.

If it involved experiencing non-local levels of reality then the question is sort of impossible to give a straight answer to since it'd seem to be all of the above simultaneously, and much else besides. Who really knows though...I'm never certain.. but for the sake of convenience I voted both...even though the whole internal vs. external thing often seems like a false dichotomy.

Okay, how's this for an uneducated, inarticulate response:
Our consciousness is the key that unlocks dmt space. (duh) OR if I wasn't around to think about it, would the universe exist?

I'm not really prone to fantasy, and the spaces I've encountered on dmt feel as real as anything I've e'er touched or.experienced in any way.

And folklore, ancient art, religious traditions and superstitions around the world describe the beings and places we visit with the pull of a pipe.

And we go to the same places and see the same things. It's a place. It's inside us, just a we are inside the universe. It's kinda like nesting dolls, if they were all squishy and plastic and moved around like sub atomic particles.

I think it's all very real, yes, and it comes from both within and without us, we are a very crucial part of the equation.

How's that for a cop out, on the fence answer?

Actually, it's the only sense I can make out of trying to comprehended, and it aint much!

I'd have to say both and more!! haha.. Once, I had the distinct feeling that I was seeing and experiencing the language that plants or cells use.. That connection. Other times, I feel like it's a representation of my own mind that manifests. i once saw an infinite multidimensional multiverse in it's totality. I had this theory that DMT takes you to that place where the VERY small and VERY big are the same. Maybe this duality extends to the inner world and the outer world. At that point, they are one. But who knows. I like the Traveler's take! haha. Though I don't know how proof of either would ever surface.. It's just so personal.

^^ what he said.
It opens our perceptions, allowing us to do things like perceive the language of flora, or to be able to see objects in only their energetic state. Once, I tried to make it across my room to get my phial and smoalk moar, but was frozen in my tracks when I looked at the table that it was on only to not see the table, but a shimmering, glass like surface of energy with another form made up of swirling particles exerting forces upon one another, the table keeping the phial suspended there upon it's surface, which was NOT solid, more life surface tension of water.

This is an expansion of perception.

And then there are break-thrus...

Thinking about this my mind just goes whoooosh

In short, i haven't had enough hyperspace experiences to have much of an informed opinion. Though, I theorize that hyperspace is in fact 5dimensional plane of existence that emerges out of consciousness but simultaneously exists as a force in the observable universe.

The place we go when we diee!!

withinity.

right jbark?

Id say DMT is the key that unlocks the door, and our consciousness tunes into it via the key like a radio.

Yes, it can be regarded as truth based off the findings in quantum physics that nothing is truly real until we measure it. So, yes, we are in a sense creating what we see because it is 'seeable', thus measurable to the individual and therefore must be real as well. Its certainly far more than 3D space and there is WAY more happening than just sight and sound. Thats an energy and vibration realm.


That realm though, where ever and what ever it is, is certainly something, somewhere, somehow. That's not strictly an internalized hallucination. Anyone who believes that the things we're describing is 'just a hallucination' definitely would change their mind right quick after one 5-7 minute express journey.

As a scientist, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Since there is no current scientifically-based explanation for an external origin for the DMT experience I am forced to say that the experience is purely internal. Should evidence arise demonstrating that there is some physical mechanism by which human brains can be coupled to some alternate reality with intelligent entities, I would change my mind. In fact, I'd really like to believe that there is more to DMT than neurochemistry but I just can't without a physical explanation.

-Samuel Beckett- "Waiting for Godot"

Anytime I get disconnected from my sensory equipment I hallucinate like there's no tomorrow. Explore deep into a lava tube and sit down. That is as black as black gets - in no time at all I'm seeing all kinds of colors, geometry, moire's, etc.

Place complete sound blocking headphones on me and in no time at all I'm hearing things.

DMT seems to completely disconnect me from my kinaesthetic sense - from the feeling of the surface of my skin and the inside of my body. I get utterly disconnected, then in no time at all and with a big rocket fuel catalyzation using the spice, I'm tripping face, thinking I'm dead, out of body, etc. . . .

Thus, though I don't know if consciousness is strictly limited to the brainspace, I do know that as I experience it, there is a DIRECT correlation to what is physically happening to my brain. It's not a suspected or mild thing. Kill off patches in my sensory temporal lobe area and I will lose my ability to feel/control that body part. Take a drug and my consciousness is altered. Remove or increase oxygen to the brain and my consciousness is radically altered. Etc. The examples could fill pages. Thus, I will temper/protect my "hand" by saying I don't know exactly all the details of it, I find myself voting for the Internal subconscious option.

Nothing more needs said. You nailed it amigo. <3

Ha! Many scientists make the most extraordinary claim of all without any evidence whatsoever:

They claim that there is a physical universe that exists independently of their consciousness. I don’t want to turn this into another “primacy of matter” vs. “primacy of consciousness” debate, but I can’t resist when the claim is made so plainly.

Anyhow, I voted “neither”.

If one accepts that all of experience is either “internal” or “external” or some mix of the two, then I agree that it would be a logical contradiction to claim “neither”. But there are all sorts of alternatives that can bypass the notion of internal vs. external.

Here’s one of many different ways to look at all of this. It’s not necessarily something I believe, but it helps to illustrate the narrowness of thinking in terms of internal vs. external, mind vs. matter, self vs. other, etc. and I’ve used this analogy many times before:

Imagine you’re reading a novel and you’re so absorbed by the story and in tune with the main character that, for a moment at least, you forget who you really are and in effect “become” the character.

Imagine the character is a DMT user, and has particularly clear and expressible DMT experiences, filled with realistic and utterly convincing visions of hyperspace.

We can now ask the original question: Are the character’s DMT visions and experiences created internally, in the character’s brain, or externally in the physical reality of the character? It should be clear that the answer is neither, since the character himself/herself DOES NOT EXIST as an independent living being. The character isn’t real. The character was never born, will never die, and will never visit our space or hyperspace. The experiences and emotions we attribute to the character are in fact experiences and emotions had by the reader.

If there is no “you”, then there is no “internal” and there is no “external”.

As a final step in this little analogy, imagine that there is no reader.


Happy New Year!

^^yesssssssssssssssssssssssssss

I also voted neither just because the question is more of a chicken and the egg thing for me. Maybe Hyperspace generates this reality and DMT just lets us see that everything really is infinite. Who really knows right?

To elaborate on Gibran2's comments:

During peak experiences i feel that all I see is a reflection of some aspect of my self; at the same time, during these moments, my definition of "self" has expanded to include, well, everything.

I know this is just another zen koan style nonanswer, but for those familiar with DMT, that should be no surprise.

We all Know the source. and it does not lie in this kind of rational dissection. It is as real as you are.

Both and neither.