Do they?

yeah, they do.

This. Is. Great.

More elaboration would be appreciated. I was under the impression that most shamans were very strict about following ancient tradition. There are traditional shamans who use a tasteless, pharmaceutical-style (pill and glass of water) ayahuasca?


I'll ask another question. I read that ayahuasca lasts about 8 hours? Just don't understand why there would be such a large disparity in duration between oral and vaped/intravenous. chinacat72 of The Shroomery reports shooting LSD and merely says it "doesn't last as long."* Clearly, IV LSD still lasts for multiple hours; whereas we know from Strassman's experiments that IV DMT only lasts about 20 min; 20 min. (IV) vs. 6 hours (ayahuasca) is a very big gap. Why would there be such a large gap? Is it the MAOI? Will IV DMT last 8 hours if an MAOI is taken?

I'll ask a another question: a low dose of ayahuasca wouldn't be too dissimilar to LSD would it? I ask because I found low doses of acid to be quite wonderful and it would be nice if the same experience could be recreated via a readily available substance and one that has less of a tolerance issue!


*I have shot it several times.
I think back when they first started to experiment with it in the late 40's and 50's, I.V. was used alot.
It comes on alot quicker and peaks alot harder. It also doesn't last as long.
As long as it's in sterile ,distilled water there are no problems with the I.V. method.
Just be prepared for a different trip. It can be kind of scary having an acid trip come on so hard and fast if your not ready for it.
The largest dose I ever I.V'd was around 1000mcg.
[...]
I had a friend on tour who would take a tiny little flake of fluff and shoot it. I wasn't so brave.
My advice is to just eat it and be safe (grin)
03/11/03
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1365055#1365055

Yeah definitely the MAOI is related to the duration of ayahuasca. Also CYP enzymes can play a role, but in that case the lack of MAOIs from pure DMT injection will be what make it end fast. If it was taken together with MAOI duration should increase, but i`m not sure exactly how long.

Also notice that if you ingest something orally, it isn`t absorbed immediately so experience is usually less strong but lasts longer, whereas if you inject it, the `all at once` factor will make it stronger but last less time (even if it was same substance and dosage).

As for shamans taking ayahuasca in encapsulated form, the traditional people won`t take it as part of their rituals but it`s possible one or another shaman has experimented with it after some westerner offered them (or also different `western` people might use it in encapsulated form and they might call themselves shamans).

Personally i`m not aware of any specific case of traditional shamans using encapsulated aya/pharma, but I can say from my own experience they are actually quite open to new customs and are not necessarily strict about things. I gave some shaman pure DMT for him to vaporize and he loved it, said he had the continuation of a vision he had when taking ayahuasca at 13 years old. He also loved hash, which isn`t part of their culture.

I think indigenous `tradition` itself is dynamic, not static, and is constantly incorporating new elements to help making sense and dealing with the world. This includes adding things that help them reaching westerners better. These days often they might even use certain linguistic tools, words and concepts that have nothing to do with their tradition but appeal to the western mind. Probably there are some shamans talking about `chakras`, or aware of specific substances of abuse that people visiting them want to get rid of, etc. I also remember reading about certain indigenous groups incorporating new substances to their `arsenal`, like some that used nutmeg even though it wasn`t traditionally used by them, or amazonian shamans growing weed there, etc.

I think it relates to the time frame of absorption of the oral route vs IV that governs the duration for the most part.I've used LSD IV once and there was no discernible rush at all; first clear effects were felt at just under 10 minutes and the duration to the peak was cut in half.In terms of overall intensity it was much the same as the oral route but total duration just missed out half the come-up time giving a 10.5ish hour experience in total.

Vaporised DMT (30mg via GVG, one breath) after full MAO-A inhibition (300mg moclobemide), IME, gave a 30 minute breakthrough, ridiculous OEVs for a further 25-30 minutes and felt more like a modulated 40mg experience in terms of intensity; I suspect IV DMT instead of vaped would be closer to this than to an oral experience in terms of duration.

Great responses. Definitely agree with the points you made in the last paragraph, endelessness: we're all evolving on multiple levels. There's no perfect tradition.


corpus callosum, love hearing from people who have a good deal of experience under their belt. IV DMT.. moclobemide.. Nice work!

Do you find moclobemide to be cleaner than harmalas? Do you find that moclobemide produces an undesireable artificial edge?

Interesting stuff. On the moclobemide front, from my own experiences with this as an MAOI, I have indeed found to be clean, crystal clear in fact, and this is both its blessing and its curse IMO. My last two experiences with this were with 150mg of that and 125mg of DMT fumarate (extracted from mimosa root bark)...for the first of these experience the DMT fumarate was ingested in a capsule...this was enjoyable but very low key...the next time I took the same dose but this time the DMT was dissolved in fruit juice with a little lemon juice added and it was MUCH stronger. It was an an incredibly intense, incapacitating and essentially hellish DMT trip with little insight.

The moclobemide is definitely a clean MAOI compound, but there is none of the grounding or guiding qualities provided by the MAOI plants such as caapi or rue, both of which seem to have much more of their own character. With the moclobemide it seemed that if one gets out into deep water, it can be very hard to get out of it. Also I didn't get the same afterglow from this as I do with the plants, so after this experience my interest in experimenting with it was sated. This was just my personal experience however.

Interesting. Very descriptive. Thank you.

This is my experience exactly with moclobemide as the MAOI... never again (I trashed what remained of the moclo)... but it was very clear