Wait a minute here....the jimjam thing is ready to be put to rest all of the sudden? based on this thread https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/d...aspx?g=posts&t=27724? Or have there been other studies that I am missing? I do not always keep current, so if i'm missing something, please do pardon my ignorance...

Hey, it might be self-suggestion.





endlessness, you conducted some tests and stuff, case closed, or what?

jfreak, it`s most probably NMT what you are experiencing, together with DMT, since many analysis of acacia confusa have shown those two main substances and we know it to be active (as per nen's tests)

Doodazzle, regarding mimosa and `jimjam`, it`s been tested several times, they always show mostly DMT even after doing naphtha pulls to supposedly remove DMT. But there are some small amount of other alkaloids, mostly NMT and 1-3 other beta carbolines: MTHBC, 2MTHBC and 1,2DMTHBC (last one is an educated guess based on mass spectra but was not compared against standard to verify). There also appears to be trace amounts of some other compounds, phenetylamines that will most probably not be anywhere near active at those amounts

The question is, can this 1-3% of these other substances affect the experience in a consistent predictable way for different people? My guess is that in the case of mimosa, other variables (set and setting, expectations, etc) will affect much more and self suggestion can take a big part. But when we deal with acacias with large percentage differences in alkaloid content, then I think it`s more probable to result in significantly different effects.

But either way, it`s not a completely answered question, we still would need some more people doing blind tests and testing the products to see once and for all if there really are no consistent predictable differences between different mimosa batches.

I'd just like to throw out there also: do double blind tests really count for DMT which can vary dramatically from one experience to the next? In the case of MHRB jimjam testing to give more weight to endlessnesses findings, wouldn't we need another full round of the same process on another batch, rather than still more anecdotal experience reports ?

Either way, it seems the acacia extracts have an awful lot more weight when talking about a 'full range' extract which seems worth pursuing.

..I thought I'd throw in that in terms of blind tests it would probably be better to do a lower non breakthrough dose to measure the effects of differen't extracts- as the effects themselves can be probably be observed a little more objectively without getting so lost in the power of a deeper visionary experience - I always like doing lower doses to start with new extracts to get a feel for their differing characteristics... but as has been echoed here acacias often have larger amounts of unknown alkaloids that may significantly alter the effects

This may be of interest, I recently did a bioassay of mostly pure NMT (without any DMT) in this thread. I experienced primarily strong body effects with almost no headspace change. This seems to corroborate what some users in this thread have mentioned about acacia extracts having a greater body load, since they contain significant quantities of NMT.

1-3% that we are unsure of.

One percent, or even less, can make a HUGE difference. By analogy:

Imagine an eight ounce glass of distilled water. 99.999 pure H20. Now add a few hundred micrograms of LSD. We are still talking 99% water...actually, there's much less that 1 percent LSD, in this hypothetical glass. There is a marked difference in the quality of this glass, no?

Let's not be too quick to formulate conclusions.

Clearly, self suggestion may possibly play a part in this. Anecdotal reports and personal predjudices aside, then as far as I can see the matter currently lies at about 50/50. Those 1-3% of NNMT, harmalines and phenethyamines may play no real role in affecting the experience. Then again, they may indeed play a role. It seems to me that to proclaim that "the matter is closed, jimjam is a myth"--well, such a claim seems irresponsible and unscientific.


Sorry to interrupt the acacia talk.

1-3 % of, say, a 30mg vaporized dosage is 0.3-0.9mg. That`s not much, they would have to be specially strong substances to have significant effect at these dosages.

Also, if I understand well, we are not only talking about if 30mg dmt or 29.7mg dmt+0.3mg `extra beta carbolines` can be somewhat different, but more specifically if the two can result in consistently different experiences for a large amount of people.

There might be no difference at all, there could be some differences but without a pattern or any possibility of predicting it (some people in double-blind tests may feel jimjam gives `lighter` visuals, others may think its `darker`, others may have specific visions, others may have different body load, others might not notice anything, etc ). Or maybe it could be very predictable but only in higher doses that are not typically found in `jimjam` and would need other specific methods of concentration (such as doing water wash on the solvent after having precipitated most DMT with FASI/FASA). Or maybe it is predictable even in lower doses and by exploring this we come to a breakthrough of knowledge regarding pharmacology of some highly potent yet unexplored compound.

Many possibilities at this point.. A lot of experiments we need some willing people to work on

Also, do we know how much of these minor alkaloids are present in crystallised, white dmt? I get the feeling that when we talk about about the minor alkaloids like jungle spice, jimjam etc we assume that they are absent from white, cystalline dmt. Is that the case, not or we do not know? I do notremember the results of endlessness' multiple analyses.

Good points. My only point is that the case can not at all be called closed. To call the case closed--is that good science?

I thought we generally try and avoid bad science, mere suppositions being posed as science, around here.

Leaving the science alone for a minute...

I also suspect that with dmt...maybe things can not be reduced down to mere physical certainties. The ingredients used in an extraction, including the mindset and intent of the extractor, could, for all we know, have an effect on the extracted product. Vegetable oil has a different history than petroleum distillates, a different vibe, different energy signal. An animistic or shamanic or alchemical paradigm would expect such factors to color the final product, somehow. None of what I just said is testable, of course.


Maybe that's what the 1-3% is all about. Maybe all things are like that -- 97-99% measurable, 1-3% pure magic, total chaos, unpredictable.

I don't know man, maybe

I disagree. I think all that you said is easily testable with double blind. If you feel you can tell appart dmt extracted with vegetable oil vs with petrochemical, then test it:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=18175

Also the 1-3% `magic` sounds like a `god of the gaps` kind of argument. Even if we were able to explain action through the molecular structures and neurochemical action, coupled with set and setting and self-suggestion aspects, it wouldn`t be less magical imo.

I think it is important to question and experiment instead of believing either way beforehand.

Infundibulum, one of the beta carbolines (2MTHBC) was usually present even in `purified` dmt in small amounts. The other two were only present in the xylene/limonene acqueous salting extracts (MTHBC and probable 1,2DMTHBC).

Thanks for the link. I'm not sure if you read my post though...

You misunderstand me though. I said nothing about the subjective experience. I have performed my own tests--myself, over a year ago. that test proves nothing. In my last post i spoke of animism.



I suspect that all matter has consciousness and memory. Further, i posit that this animistic nature to our reality may just mean that two DMT's, chemically alike, could possibly be way different experientially, due to said animism.


How is any of that testable?



I have stated that I do not believe anything, one way or the other. Only that the case is not closed.






Anyways. I skimmed the thread you posted to. I do not see results...seems like the experiment was never really followed through with? Only two people took part?

EDIT okay, I see, you are saying that the taste-test you devised can test whether or not any of the boogey-boo I was talking about could effect the quality of the spice. Well, i think we can test the quality sure, but the cause for the qualitative difference (if there is one) is another matter. Again, I do not know nor am i convinced in any way on the matter.

I think that double-blind testing with a decent sized number of participants would, as a minimum, be needed to attempt to make any valid conclusions one way or the other.

On a completely anecdotal level, I use BLAB product in the main but had some aside via Vovins tek and the latter gets used much less often; both are from the same batch of powdered MHRB. A 30mg dose of each via the GVG in one breath gives a breakthrough with either but subjectively theres an added 'sharpness' to the colours with Vovins tackle which is noticeable.Its not that BLAB experiences are washed-out or inferior in any way, but it made me wonder if this aspect may be a bit like smoking a different cigarette to ones usual brand once in a blue-moon.

Statistically, of course, my experience means zilch!

I was wondering whether the percentages of alkaloids could be variable as well? endlessness, how many samples were the analysis performed on?

I have a similar question....
I recently took on the responsibility of attempting my first extraction. I used an A/B tek which was posted by "yours Truly"???? Very similar to other teks I have read. I have done 3 pulls from 100g of ACRB and I am astonished with the amount of nearly pure white crystalline substance that has formed in all three containers! I am still waiting for the last traces of naphtha to evap so I can weigh the final product but if I had to guess I would say it looks like 1-2 grams. Wondering what else could be in the dish besides spice?