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benzyme wrote:
I didn't notice any metaphysical conjecture in the paper.
I was very careful not to include any... benzyme wrote:Tough crowd One of my postdoctoral profs once told me that if your papers don't make at least a few people tear up the manuscript and punch a wall in disgust, then you're doing something wrong... I think he was right... if everyone agrees with what you say, it probably wasn't worth saying...
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DMT-Nexus member
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I think that even if we could pin down the whole DMT experience to specific neurotransmitters and thought processes it would in no way distract from the revelations it can bring.
We as people are inclined to believe that there is something more to life than just chemistry but to me it makes no difference, life is such a beautiful experience to behold. We are nothing but dust from a broken star given a fleeting glimpse of consciousness before we return to whence we came. Energy flows through us and all around us and I see no reason that we could not imagine impossible worlds.
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DMT-Nexus member
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Randomness wrote:I think that even if we could pin down the whole DMT experience to specific neurotransmitters and thought processes it would in no way distract from the revelations it can bring. Amen to that....
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 3135 Joined: 27-Mar-2012 Last visit: 10-Apr-2023
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One thing that gets me is the synchronicity of so many things. Stone carvings around the world that as of yet, cannot be linked through mixed cultures spreading information. The same can be said about DMT and the human brain. We are all experiencing life subjectively different from one another. We all have different backgrounds, experiences, knowledge, ect. There are people in the world that have not seen the ocean except maybe through pictures. Yet we all seem to have similiar visual representations of hyperspace. To say that the brain is conjuring this up, wouldnt that be the same as saying all the things we see there are programmed into each and every single one of our brains? I don't have a scientific background so what I am saying may be silly due to some misunderstandings I have about certain aspects of the mind. If you have not seen it you cannot consciously visualize it, as far as certain things go anyway. I would be curious as to what a born blind person see's on DMT. It's already been discussed, and I have read quite a bit about blind people, born or otherwise, taking psychedelics. But never seen anything about a blind person taking DMT. "Energy flows where attention goes" [Please review the forum Wiki and FAQ before posting questions]
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 165 Joined: 13-Jul-2011 Last visit: 28-Apr-2024 Location: UK
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anrchy wrote:Yet we all seem to have similiar visual representations of hyperspace. To say that the brain is conjuring this up, wouldnt that be the same as saying all the things we see there are programmed into each and every single one of our brains?
That's really the point I'm trying to make.... When it comes to blind people, I've also thought of this - the problem is they'd probably be unable to verbalise visual images even if they saw them.... they wouldn't recognise vision for what it is because they've never experienced it...
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laughingcat wrote:anrchy wrote:Yet we all seem to have similiar visual representations of hyperspace. To say that the brain is conjuring this up, wouldnt that be the same as saying all the things we see there are programmed into each and every single one of our brains?
That's really the point I'm trying to make.... When it comes to blind people, I've also thought of this - the problem is they'd probably be unable to verbalise visual images even if they saw them.... they wouldn't recognise vision for what it is because they've never experienced it... I read a whole thread where a guy who had very diminished vision, could only make out the outlines of shapes and very dim light, would have very similiar dreams and experiences on mushrooms. Those that are born blind dream in sound. There also seems to be a difference between people who are blind due to failure of the eye itself (or optic nerve) and the area of the brain that deals with vision and the use of psychedelics and of there dreams. "Energy flows where attention goes" [Please review the forum Wiki and FAQ before posting questions]
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DMT-Nexus member
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laughingcat wrote:anrchy wrote:Yet we all seem to have similiar visual representations of hyperspace. To say that the brain is conjuring this up, wouldnt that be the same as saying all the things we see there are programmed into each and every single one of our brains?
That's really the point I'm trying to make.... When it comes to blind people, I've also thought of this - the problem is they'd probably be unable to verbalise visual images even if they saw them.... they wouldn't recognise vision for what it is because they've never experienced it... If you check the ted lecture it is about old people who have gone blind. Strangely they have no emotional connection or interactions with any of the things they see. Sadly a lot of the people suffering from the condition think they are going mad and try and hide the fact that they are seeing things and don't talk about it.
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Ok, I butchered the info a tiny bit but here is the entire reddit thread where they guy talks about his experiences. I hate the layout of reddit BTW. Quote:Response to: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/cohmw/request_blind_person_from_birth_who_has_taken_lsd/Hello all. I am a 44 year old totally blind musician, singer, and songwriter. First, I want to thank my friend arucardX, for his kind words, and for helping me get set up here so that I can write to you folks. As for blind people, and their ability to communicate on the net, it is mostly done through the use of screen readers, (Jaws for Windos, Windo Eyes), are just a couple of which I'm aware. I'm sure the mac's have their versions as well. These reading voice programs have their limitations naturally. For example, those little capture boxes where you're supposed to put the "text you se in the box", my screen reader won't tell me what's there. There are a few other limitations as well, but I am able to brows the net, and I do all my musical recording on my computer. For me personally, braille is just too slow for the internet. I have learned to use a regular keyboard, and I can actually type about 60 words a minute. More when I'm wired hahahaha! This brings me to my next subject. Being old school, I have tried many diferent types of halucinigens. I can tell you first hand, that visuals are possible even for the totally blind. Well, I can se light and darkness, and if something blocks the light, I can se a blurry shape, but nothing that I can make out clearly. Under the influence of various antheogins, I have experienced sights such as various lights, which would change shapes and then melt in front of me. Once durring an experience with Salvia extract, I nearly became my rockingchair! I don't mean that I "melted in to it", I mean that if I hadn't jumpped out of it, I'd have turned in to the actual chair. I know that sounds crazy, but that's what happened. Naturally, sounds are a big part of my trip experiences, but I have seen somethings as well. I had a buddy that had his own light show setup, and we used to trip out on really good acid, (this was back in the early 80's when they still made it), and he'd shine these high powered lights through prisoms, and I saw all kinds of wild stuff. I believe I have seen color because of these experiences. I believe that music is a psychoactive thermostat if you will. It can take you to many diferent places depending on your surroundings, and a few other factors.I have had more experiences than I can write here, but I'll be glad to share with anyone interested in my adventures. "Energy flows where attention goes" [Please review the forum Wiki and FAQ before posting questions]
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Sorry I thought you were talking about blind from birth - I think this is called Charles-Bonnet syndrome when people that go blind start to see visions... it's also interesting that you state they have no emotional response/attachment to these visions and yet, with DMT, the emotional aspect is very strong ("This IS real!" or "This seems familiar" or "They seemed so powerful and intelligent!!!" ) - I think this emotional/affective aspect of the DMT experience may be as important as the content....
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"I believe I have seen color because of these experiences."
Wow, it's quite powerful to read someone say they 'believe' they have seen colours - no way to confirm it though I guess...
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DMT-Nexus member
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I really resonate when he says that "I believe that music is a psychoactive thermostat if you will." I completely agree. Music changes during a single trip change everything sometimes. Quote:"I believe I have seen color because of these experiences."
Wow, it's quite powerful to read someone say they 'believe' they have seen colours - no way to confirm it though I guess... Ya i thought you might like that since you brought that idea up Quote: the problem is they'd probably be unable to verbalise visual images even if they saw them.... "Energy flows where attention goes" [Please review the forum Wiki and FAQ before posting questions]
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A lot of confusion revolves around how to define reality. Although we all inhabit the same physical space our interpretations are different. Even our interactions with the same object can be different and no one photon that reaches my retina will ever reach yours. So do we define our own reality by our perception or by measurable constants in the physical world.
If we define our reality by what we experience as an individual then there is an argument that during something as profound as a DMT breakthrough or during dreaming then you have by experiencing it created that alternate reality of which you inhabited. This of course is more philosophy than science but at the same time is is good to define what we mean by real it can turn into a touchy subject.
Laughing cat although our opinions do differ in parts I really respect the fact that you have managed to compose a paper and then got it published, that you should be proud of.
Anyone who is worried about the spread of misinformation should be aware that everybody already knows that DMT is made in the pineal gland and released on mass when you die. Like is says somewhere in that spirit molecule book. LOL
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DMT-Nexus member
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Randomness wrote:Laughing cat although our opinions do differ in parts I really respect the fact that you have managed to compose a paper and then got it published, that you should be proud of. Thanks - I appreciate that... Randomness wrote: Anyone who is worried about the spread of misinformation should be aware that everybody already knows that DMT is made in the pineal gland and released on mass when you die. Like is says somewhere in that spirit molecule book. LOL
... I learned it from Joe Rogan....
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I have what may be a weird question about the brain. I am no scientist, but I was wondering if you know how the brain brings up a signal of fear and if this is at all related to the paper? For instance I have a dog that is afraid of bikes. Since the day I adopted him, every time a few bikes pass by he has this reaction of fear (tail between his legs, starts to pull the leash etc). I was wondering if this has anything to do with the type of representation made by the brain about the world. You say this is is based on experience, but is this the same region in the brain reacting that way? And could this be the reason why psychedelics seem to have a good impact on fear or traumas? I hope my question is a bit clear, as I said I am no scientist. And also, I understand the crtique on the paper, but isn't it just great news and something to be proud of that this paper gets some attention? Time will tell if there is something to it, but I think the main thing is getting the right kind of attention in the hope that mainstream science will not simply dismiss this whole thing. "It permits you to see, more clearly than our perishing mortal eye can see, vistas beyond the horizons of this life, to travel backwards and forwards in time, to enter other planes of existence, even (as the Indians say) to know God." R. Gordon Wasson
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analytical chemist
  
Posts: 7463 Joined: 21-May-2008 Last visit: 03-Mar-2024 Location: the lab
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fear = amygdala "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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Elpo wrote:I am no scientist, but I was wondering if you know how the brain brings up a signal of fear and if this is at all related to the paper? For instance I have a dog that is afraid of bikes. Since the day I adopted him, every time a few bikes pass by he has this reaction of fear (tail between his legs, starts to pull the leash etc). The main region of the brain that "generates" fear is called the amygdala and it is strongly connected to the parts that "write" memory - this is so that any event or object (e.g. bike!) that causes fear or trauma will always trigger the amygdala and thus fear should it ever be encountered again. Of course, this is important in evolutionary terms for avoiding danger - e.g. if you met a wolf and it tried to eat you, then it might be a good idea to get scared if you see a wolf again, or even enter the same kind of environment where you met the wolf the first time, even if there's no wolf there! (This is perhaps why we're instinctively scared of the dark - the night was when wild animals would jump out and eat us!). Unfortunately, sometimes the fear response becomes locked to something innocuous (hence phobias), but it is very difficult to shake off because it's such an important feature of our evolutionary past... Elpo wrote:I was wondering if this has anything to do with the type of representation made by the brain about the world. You say this is is based on experience, but is this the same region in the brain reacting that way? And could this be the reason why psychedelics seem to have a good impact on fear or traumas? I think the mechanism is very different, but with many deep seated fears it isn't necessarily clear what the fear is linked to, perhaps because the brain locks it out of consciousness to protect us... I think psychedelics allow these fears to be explored, by "loosening" this protective barrier, allowing you to face the fear and come to terms with it... Hope that helps...
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It's also interesting that DMT is very often associated with fear, even after many uses - Terence McKenna used to describe his hand trembling with the pipe.... it might be interesting to think about why this it the case....
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laughingcat wrote:Hope that helps... Yes it does. Thanks for the quick reply.  "It permits you to see, more clearly than our perishing mortal eye can see, vistas beyond the horizons of this life, to travel backwards and forwards in time, to enter other planes of existence, even (as the Indians say) to know God." R. Gordon Wasson
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DMT-Nexus member
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laughingcat wrote:It's also interesting that DMT is very often associated with fear, even after many uses - Terence McKenna used to describe his hand trembling with the pipe.... it might be interesting to think about why this it the case.... I "tremble with fear" often when I am dosing other people even. I didn't have this sensation with mushrooms until after having a "bad trip". Although it isn't nearly as pronounced and MUCH easier to talk myself into dosing mushrooms than DMT. It seems that DMT is solo on this mission to scare us out of taking it. Although... if everytime you took mushrooms it was the equivalent of 7 grams for a normal dose its not too hard to believe you might have the same anxiety going in everytime. "Energy flows where attention goes" [Please review the forum Wiki and FAQ before posting questions]
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Love the paper btw, glad to see some real effort academically... Let me tell you why I think it is simply a hallucination: because I always only experience symbols and themes according to what I have been studying at the time. First, it was Eastern philosophy, so I saw Buddhas, and the entities I met were Buddha shaped and taught me Eastern philosophical lessons. Then it was Hinduism, where I saw Hindu Gods and thousand armed entities and the like. Next, after looking at a series of nude photos, I saw the clouds having an orgy that would make the Romans proud, the best adult video ever made. I even contacted my dead friend by sitting in the exact spot where he died, by intention. Then it was Native American culture, where I then saw teepees, fires, drumming, etc. Lastly, I contemplated and tried Christian thought, and saw angels, demons, and a God above the clouds. Meditate before you venture, take it seriously, use it as medicinal—it is good psychotherapy if needed. Realize that you, the Earth, others, and the Universe are all one and the same process. Then take that knowledge back to become, as you already are, one with nature. Eternity in every moment. Divinity in every particle. All is one organism.
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