DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 11 Joined: 08-Oct-2013 Last visit: 17-Jul-2014
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Hello, So i know someone who has recently done an acid base extraction on some acacia confusa root bark. He got crystals that look very similar to the white waxy crystals he has seen in pictures of other acacia confusa extractions posted here. He wanted to know how to make them more crystalline. After searching google, he came across several threads on the DMT-Nexus on the same topic. There seems to be many ways to remove it, but what he found interesting was a post saying that one could methylate the nmt to dmt. https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=20978 The post was made by the member Dr_Sister. It says Dr_Sister Quote:NMT could definitely be methylated to form DMT, however DMS would not be Sisters first choice of methylating agent, its nasty nasty stuff to work with. (Especially in the ghetto, where there are no fume hoods!) There is one method that Sister is aware of that uses otc and the relatively non-toxic chemicals, zinc powder and formaldehyde. Paraformaldehyde is available as an otc anti-mildew product and can be depolymerized to formaldehyde by treating with an aqueous base. Zinc powder can be made with a file and a chunk of zinc from an sacraficial anode. Sister doubts NMT is very soluble in H20, but thinks an alcohol could also be used as the solvent. It is in other zinc catalyzed reductions.
Sister has attached a PDF of the paper, apparently the work up is a little messy, but it works.
Reductive methylation of primary and secondary amines and amino acids by aqueous formaldehyde and zinc
Renato A. da Silva,a Ida´lia H. S. Estevamb and Lothar W. Biebera,*
Abstract—Amines can be methylated when treated with formaldehyde and zinc in aqueous medium. Selective mono- or dimethylation
can be achieved by proper choice of pH, stoichiometry and reaction time. This method can also be applied for amino acids.
There are several other methylation proceedures, but they are beyond the scope of what the rules allow us to discuss here and use reagents that are more difficult to acquire. He was wondering how does one actually go about doing this? Any guidance would very helpful to him.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 503 Joined: 11-May-2013 Last visit: 29-Nov-2020
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Interesting, I have a fairly large quantity of reasonably pure NMT fumarate that is collecting dust.
My initial take on the process:
1. Make solution of paraformaldehyde in water
2. Add a small amount of base (i.e. sodium carbonate)
3. May need to lower the pH to neutral to dissolve NMT fumarate, so add enough vinegar (?) to do this. It might be better to just use heat to depolymerize the paraformaldehyde instead (this should work according to wikipedia). Hopefully the fumarate ions won't cause any problems either.
4. Add excess zinc metal powder
5. Stir occasionally, keep covered, probably for at least a few hours, maybe more.
6. Now we need to recover the (hopefully) methylated NMT, so add lots of base.
7. Do 3x pulls with naphtha, then freeze-precipitate as usual.
Some potential issues with this:
* The fumarate or acetate ions might cause problems, but I can't say for sure with my limited chemistry knowledge.
* Is formaldehyde soluble in naphtha? If so, will this cause the result to be unsafe to consume?
* Could also heat the solution of paraformaldehyde to depolymerize it.
I might try it sometime, I have all of the materials except paraformaldehyde, which is cheap.
Also, welcome to the Nexus!
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 365 Joined: 08-Apr-2012 Last visit: 12-Jun-2020 Location: Adelaide, Australia
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I have read this a few times on the nexus, would be great for one of us to try it out, and see how they fair. Please let us know how you go 
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 14191 Joined: 19-Feb-2008 Last visit: 15-Nov-2024 Location: Jungle
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I can`t comment on the viability of this method, but I`d just like to warn that formaldehyde is carcinogenic, please wear gloves, goggles, mask and work in well ventilated area, avoid exposure to it.
It is probably soluble in naphtha, but it should also evaporate eventually since it is actually a gas in room temperature.
Be sure to have cleaned it up completely if you plan on using a product that was in contact with formaldehyde.
Also I recommend TLC analysis otherwise you won`t really know how well it works
By the way arcologist, did you bioassay NMT by itself ?
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 503 Joined: 11-May-2013 Last visit: 29-Nov-2020
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endlessness wrote:By the way arcologist, did you bioassay NMT by itself ? I haven't had a chance to get it into a smokable form yet to try, been busy with graduate school. It's on my to-do list though.
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 11 Joined: 08-Oct-2013 Last visit: 17-Jul-2014
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He'll make sure to go through the proper process to protect himself.
He would try this as soon as He can, but he doesn't know where to get the paraformaldahyde.
Could someone tell him or point in the right direction of the oct paraformaldahyde?
Also I've read about tlc and understand it basically, but can one just buy tlc plates from the internet?
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analytical chemist
  
Posts: 7463 Joined: 21-May-2008 Last visit: 03-Mar-2024 Location: the lab
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*observes the future* I see... a trimethylated product, quaternary ammmonium salt. btw...this sort of discussion is a no-no, it delves into synthesis theory. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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DMT-Nexus member
Posts: 503 Joined: 11-May-2013 Last visit: 29-Nov-2020
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For the record, I did a lot of research and it appears like it is not possible to methylate NMT to DMT using safe reagents. Carrying out the reductive amination in acidic solution causes the formation of 2-MeTHBC via Pictet-Spengler cyclization instead of DMT. This means that exotic reagents like NaCNBH3 are required. See the attached paper. So, don't bother with it. Smoalk your NMT as-is.
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analytical chemist
Posts: 7463 Joined: 21-May-2008 Last visit: 03-Mar-2024 Location: the lab
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that's just one of several routes, but none of them use "safe" chemicals. most methylators are mutagenic. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." ~ hassan i sabbah
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." -Max Planck
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