jamie wrote:"On an evolutionary level eating grains is very very recent thing"
So far we know we have been doing it for over 100,000 years..that is over half the time we have been homo sapien sapien, and this number could even change if/when evidence for earlier use is found.
http://www.sciencedaily....2009/12/091217141312.htm But jamie, you said humans have always eaten grains...100k years ago is still roughly halfway between the point when anatomically modern humans arose (200k yrs)...(and all of this is assuming that evidence of one small group eating plant X 100k years ago implies that therefore virtually all humans ate that plant)...
And when factoring in the millions of years prior to 200k years ago that contributed to our evolutionary unfolding in a huge way, relatively speaking, its safe to say that right now it seems like grain eating is a very recent thing. (IMO a fallback food) And so we can't at this point say "humans have always eaten grains", because thats very inaccurate and a misleading way to think/talk, according to what we know now... Which was my only point really.
jamie wrote:
I am not saying eat grains..or that any diet should be made up of grains, or that I sit around eating tons of grains. Generally, I follow something like a primal diet. I am saying that for one, I have provided enough links that would suggest that people with gluten intolerance seem to be just fine with traditional fermentation preperations, and that we have been doing this for a long time..and even one link that found that it had a healing effect..and I have not seen any evidence posted from others who are opposed to this idea. All I see is personal opinions which is fine, but I have grown to become very skeptical of this whole idea that grains are just bad. Pretty much everything people have to say about why grains are bad is not relevant when ancient/heiroloom grains are properly fermented. Unless someone can provide me with reliable links or something saying the opposite I am not convinced anymore.
I used to believe all grains are bad reguardless, but I just see a lack of evidence. I am one of the people who was actually diagnosed(not self diagnosed) by a doctor as being highly gluten sensitive. I avoided all grains and gluten for many years. Recently I did a test on myself. I ate some organic whole spelt(an ancient wheat, unfermented) bread..just a piece, and I got a bad reaction and my back hurt for the next day and all night. Then I tried some organic fermented sourdough made from ancient heirloom grain(an ancient wheat)..and nothing. I tried it again after a few days and again..no reaction. In fact I seem to digest that even better than other non gluten grains like rice and oats that are not fermented.
Sorry for the confusion, I never commented on fermented ancestral grains in here. Like most others I'm speaking generally about grains as they are used today. I'm not saying fermented ancient grains are good or bad for you since I don't know, but I do think there is enough evidence to conclude that by and large mainstream grain usage today can have a detrimental affect on health. Does that include fermented ancient grains? Maybe not, I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me either way really.
Fermenting ancient grains is very interesting but unfortunately not really that relevant to the reality of the situation at this point in the west when talking about grains and health, since afaik hardly anyone eats these fermented ancient varieties in the first place. When people are talking generally about grains and their negative affects, they are talking about how they are commonly consumed today. But yes as you hinted its too bad that evidence of other grain usage being detrimental leads some to automatically assume that all grain use = bad.
That self-test is interesting, although I'm very skeptical of extrapolating much from this sort of thing since its not a very reliable way to test what is good for all humans in general. I've heard countless stories about self-tests in regards to diet (and many other things) where people declare this food good for them and that food bad for them, or whatever, only to change their opinion on it every few months.
<Ringworm>hehehe, it's all fun and games till someone loses an "I"