Don't worry about the times you get identified with them, no problem... but once you notice that you are identified, just come back to yourself, and drop that process. The more you make THAT your focus, the clearer you will be, and the deeper rooted that clarity becomes (and the less often the identification)

So, again, when you are identified, and you notice that you are identified, that very moment that you notice, just drop the identification.

No need to fight with identification, or feel bad or guilty or anything about it, its just old thought patterns running off, let them run off, but the moment you become aware that you are identified just drop them and go on about your business in the present.


The same goes for your analysis too. Once you see it, just drop it, and carry on. If you catch yourself caught in it, identified with it, once you catch yourself just drop it. You will get lost, or identified tons of times, but dont worry about the times you get identified, don't even pay it any mind, put your focus, or attention, or awareness on the moments that you drop the identification and are clear, not identified, just aware

I too am pretty well versed in mental disorders, and tho I see exactly where you are coming from and why you are suggesting what you are suggesting, I have tried both approaches (with antidepressants, drugs, psychiatric session) and without. The one without, is healthier, and more coherent, and will give him permanent relief and insight into his own issues, without having to depend on psychiatric help. The one you are suggesting has the potential to create chemical dependence (not always, depends on the person of course)

I'm not saying you are wrong, it can certainly be useful, but if his basic awareness of himself is lacking then it can also do more harm than good

i think heading to the psychiatrist is pretty solid advice infact if things don't improve this path should not be avoided , yet what Broken is saying is extremely relevant , having basic awareness of oneself is one of the most important thing a person can discover and bring into his life

however i would just wait a little to see if things don't improve within a few weeks as the 5htp washes out of the system , not everyone needs it and some have difficult reactions to it

so a little patience is a good thing yet if things are not improving within a few months , heading to the psychiatrist is a good idea yet before that let the 5htp wash out of your system and let the meditation techniques settle in for a while , you might or might not need the psychiarist , in either case use all the tools you can and make the best of everything ,

did you start heading to the gym ?

anyways did you try a little coffee ? did this help lift your mental fog?

also this mental fog is a 5htp thing as far as i know

First off I'd like to say thank you all for your patience and diligence in working with me in my frustration. As far as using pharmaceuticals I would rather not. I believe all beings have the potential to heal themselves.I myself am stubborn and hard headed I'm terrible at acceptance. I've been trying to find a shortcut to attain the state I desire. Plus I gave my whole situation a perception of suffering so it doesn't help to much. I'm going to try and perceive the state as good and roll with it since everything passes with time and everything is changing. I know I'll get better but maybe just not at the speed I so desperately want.
As for identification broken child. I can't emphasis how identified with my mind I am right now. You say come back to yourself that is the problem I have. That self isn't there due to my mind blocking me. I'm aware of it to but it isn't stopping it. I know I'm not my thoughts very well but I'm having a problem integrating my mind into it. If I could stop the identification I could probably sleep. If I could detach I would be in the state I seek. The state of peace. The anxiety has brought stress which makes your brain a good deal foggy and I do not know if anyone here understands what I mean by a band around my head. You know how your mind feels lucid and free especially under the effects of psycho-actives. Take that and just pretend someone put a rubber-band around it to lock it down.


I looked up some info on depersonalization/anxiety. It stems from anxiety and trauma which sounds about right in my case but some people confuse this state as well with the same state as my "awakening" I just wanted to make clear while there are subtle similarities one gave me a deeper connection to life while this one is building a blockade. Maybe they are the same state but I'm just in a negative rut and threw anxiety and stress in the mix.
Also the self and what not I want back as I understand isn't really a self since that's always changing and what not but more so my structure or foundation if that makes sense.

I've been doing manual labor more but not the gym.

I did try coffee but not much help.

My mental fog is due to stress and my mind just zipping all over the place.

I think my main problem is I keep beating myself up for causing myself to lose a state in which I found true bliss. As well as my secureness with myself and well truly knowing myself in my life while trying to spread the bliss onto everyone else. Thoughtless bliss. I did so accidentally but in doing so lost all my energy and well my mind now. I gotta forgive myself and accept now. Strangely I thought about something else too. I never reached my heightened state by trying to gain it as I was unaware what was happening until I kept rising higher and higher. All I did was live my life doing me to the fullest in the moment. My thoughts flowed without thinking if that makes sense? now I notice myself constantly trying to do something witch I know is the opposite of it all. Trying is the sole problem but I'm addicted to it now it seems.


I think my main goals is to Control my mind once more, stop identifying with it, slow down thoughts, beat anxiety and find my self again. I mainly would just like my oneness with it all back but in time.

First though is this mind needs to slow down and give me the reins back. :grin
I think the rest will unfold itself after this. Including finding myself.

Once again you guys have given me so much of your time to help and I'm very grateful to you.

Also Broken child, my thoughts are there but much harder to hear maybe some have run to the subconscious.

I use I a lot now

First of all, you're seemingly identifying your "self" with this other state that you had in the past. Ok, great, but that's not going to help you because that moment is gone... it's in the past. You can't "revive" past moments, you can only live present ones.

In any case you say "the self isn't there due to the mind blocking me" you're fighting with your mind, don't fight with your mind.

Now let's define the "self" that I'm referring to when I say come back to yourself. You say you can see your thoughts... ok, great, fantastic in fact. What you're not seeing, is YOU... the seer. That which can see the thoughts. If you can see it, then you are not it. But you're getting identified with your thoughts, and therein lies the problem. The thoughts are not the problem; good thoughts, bad thoughts, "evil" thoughts, whatever.. you can have any kind of thought whatsoever and it will never be a problem. The problem is your identification with it. The identification arises because you don't understand what YOU are... the observer, or the witnessing consciousness, that "sees" the thoughts is what you actually are. (this is what I mean by come back to yourself in the present) the witnessing consciousness is always clear, but thoughts can be sticky, so the trick then comes down to identification with this clear consciousness, and just watching the thoughts, like you're sitting up on a hill and just watching the thoughts go around in the valley, and eventually they will die down and run off... the more they run off the clearer you become. Simply by watching. Simple trick that will help you, instead of focusing your awareness on the thoughts, focus it on the space between the thoughts, so look at the space when one train of thought ended, but another one has not arrived. Just a simple change of focus is all it takes, and then just maintain yourself in that emptyness, that clear awareness

Once you can get grounded in that, the rest will be a piece of cake.

Another thing, drop this self-loathing, and this self-disappointment that you have, it's not doing anything whatsoever, all the recriminations are just keeping you in a negative thought loop. There's nothing wrong with you, you're just a bit shook up. Just watch things, see them as they are, and let them settle on their own accord. YOU are not needed for your life to return back to order, all you have to do is watch, like watching a movie... just be aware of everything that's happening... and eventually you'll be back to normal, and out of that watching your personality and everything else will fall back in place or be corrected if needed, but then you'll see it, and you'll be conscious of it

ok then no need to do this if it does'nt help(and don't increase doseage-its poisoninhighgdoseages) ,

however keep on with the meditative techniques and enjoying your time ,

also since life is a trip , and sometimes it turns into a bad trip , we should just stay calm and enjoy ourselves to bring joy to ourselves and turn it into a good trip

wait for the 5htp to wash out of your system , it can take some time if you're taking it regularly ,

also try to think back before you started with 5htp , was your mind functioning better then or was it like this already ?

I was using 5htp during my pure mind moments so it was alright.

I was trying to say its harder to hear my thoughts broken child

hmm I see what you're saying. See the way I function, is I mentally "look" in.. and I can see when a thought, or train of thoughts is running. So it's easier to develop this mental "seeing" because it will give you the clarity I'm referring to.

As far as going at it from the "hearing" approach, I guess don't focus on listenting to thoughts, focus on hearing the empty space between thoughts. In fact, pay thought itself no mind whatsoever, instead place your full and total focus on the times when thoughts are not, and make THAT your primary functioning zone... and from there just be aware of everything around you, and go about your daily business.


So, it's like this. I'm writing words in this sentence, and you can either look at the words, which you are reading, or you can look at the space between every word. All it takes is a little change of focus. Both exist, and both are necessary since the empty space provides the background for my words to "pop out" so-to-speak. But you can choose to either look at the empty space, or look at the words. Now if you imagine each word is a thought, which in a way it is, you can look at the space between each thought (or listen, whatever) and make that your primary space, don't even worry about the thoughts or their content. Doesn't matter what kind of thought, don't worry about thoughts worry about the spaces that exist between thoughts, because in THOSE spaces you have your clarity, in those minute moments. The more you're aware in those spaces, the more those silent spaces will grow, and the less thoughts you will have running around rampantly in your head, and the more aware and clear you will become



Another way to put it is thoughts are a mental "speaking"... now you can't stop speaking, through more speaking... and when you speak, it's essentially sound which breaks silence... but beteween every word, whether or not you are aware, exists small spaces of silence... they are necessary in order for you to distinguish one word from another. Instead of focusing on the words, focus on those silent spaces... and then the "speaking" will die down, and you'll be able to hear silence, and functioning from that silent clarity, that non-chattered awareness, will bring you back to your life's natural flow over time

By easier, I mean it's easier for me... but do whatever is more natural for you, one, or the other, or a synthesis of both, up to you... find whatever approach is more natural for you, all roads lead to rome

I understand what I am just not consciously understanding but intellectually. You are extremely right though, as soon as that sliver of focus hits in that emptyness the doors will swing back open. Also I have a theory that as our awareness grows or contracts we have the ability to perceive more thoughts?
My thoughts are harder to find I guess you could say. If i try to observe they don't seem to come.
I am trying to focus in the void. I just need to pop out of the cycle to get some sleep so I can focus.

lol you certainly are stubborn. No worries brother.

First of all, drop all of your "theories" and stick to existential experience. Also drop all of your expectations. This trick is SO simple it's not even funny.

When you say "as our awareness grows or contracts we have the ability to perceive more thoughts"... no. You're still stuck on thoughts, I am trying to get you unstuck from them alltogether. It sounds a bit counter-intuitive, you're probably thinking "what is he saying? I will lose my mind and go crazy"... the thing is you won't lose your mind, nor will you go crazy, you will just be aware of your mind and it's functions.

Think of the mind like a rake. It's just a tool, you can use it to rake leaves when you need to. And when you don't need to, you can put it aside. If you try to get angry and fight with the rake, you're only going to waste your energy and quite possibly hurt yourself. Once you understand the function of the rake in its entirety, then you can dance with it.

So the basic thing, drop your theories, it's not going to be an "enlightening moment" like you think, once you can see what I'm talking about, it'll just be a simple "ah, ok, got it"

Drop your thoughts, first and foremost... if they don't come, that is amazing, you can go on doing your daily duties out of that clear, thoughtless consciousness. If they do creep up, don't focus on the thoughts, put all of your attention on the space between trains of thought... so one string of thought comes, runs it's course... and then there's a silent space, before another string gets there... just be aware of that silent space, silently aware of it. The more you get rooted in the space between your thoughts, the more you will clearly be able to see what you are doing. Don't worry about the thoughts at all, if they come, and you get identified, ok, just watch and pay attention, but then watch the spaces in between the actual thoughts, the more you stay in those spaces, the more that space will grow, the more "silent" your mind will be, and the clearer you will see your position from that mental silence and clarity and insight. Just look at a thought as a thing, because it is basically a thing. If you can see the thing, then you must not be the thing, you are that which is separate from the thing, which is seeing it. Once the thing runs it's course, then what you are seeing (or what you are aware of) is clarity, before another thing arrives. Get rooted in this clarity, between the mental "things"

Don't just try to intellectually understand it, have your own experience. It won't be earth-shattering, it'll just be an insight, eventually you'll get it

So turn your attention on that which is seeing it, not on the thought; but that which is seeing the thought, or is aware of it. It would be easier to do in that clarity in between two thoughts, or two trains of thought.. this way the thought itself is not there, there is just "seeing"

Or, if you wish, from the hearing perspective, you are aware of thoughts as "chunks" of mental energy (like sound, for example) but then there is silent space between them, in that silent space, that which is aware of that silence, is you. So there would just be mental silence, and you are aware of it, eventually if your hearing and awareness goes on the silence then you will be aware of that which is aware of the silence... or, in other words, aware of awareness itself

good to know that , in any case let it all wash out of your system since right now you're suffering , discontinue all further use , no need to be playing with brain chemistry right now

continue with the meditative techniques , eventually you'll get it

also if its harder to hear your thoughts then what really is the problem ? , i hope its not clarity

let go , things will resolve with time and practice

also the silence or the gap between each thought is precisely when a person can hear an external sound as when our minds talk we hardly hear the external world , the silence they talk about is not an external one its an internal one

silence your mind by hearing noises continuously - brilliantly upside down as that sounds , i choose this technique as its very easy

things do get better in time

maybe the simplicity of basic awareness is escaping you... so perhaps explaining it like this would help;

This doesn't take any extra effort on your part. So, you can do this and go on doing whatever you do in life (it really doesn't matter what you do), just add the element of being conscious of your processes to it (so, it's not like you have to sit in your closet and practice it, or you have to go to a cave and try to accomplish this task, you can just do it as an integral part of life). So, when eating, eat consciously (you can eat mechanically, out of habit, just going through the motions because they are programmed, or you can eat and be present when eating, enjoying every bite, the taste the flavor, being conscious of it.. how it tastes, the texture, the sound when you chew etc), when walking... instead of thinking about all of the crazy stuff you gotta do for the day, or thinking about yesterday, or tomorrow.. just walk, and be aware that you're walking (not that you have to say "I'm walking" in your head, but just be aware of the process of walking, and the sound of footsteps on the ground, and the birds chirping, or the wind blowing, or the leaves crumpling around... just aware of it) the same goes for any other activity, just be aware in the process.

If your mental process, or thinking, starts working its way into it, you don't have to "force" it to stop, or try to do anything with it, just be aware that now thinking is going on, along with whatever you're doing... and just watch the thinking process. It's likely that you will get identified with the thinking thousands of times, before you get the hang of it (if you get identified with it, you will carry the thought out to its natural end, or conclusion) if you watch it, then you just see the thinking happening, or your mind going through the process, but you're just watching it. Remain with this watching, and eventually you will see exactly what I'm talking about. Just put some distance between you, and your mental processes... or, in other words, watch how your mind and bodily processes function. Eventually you'll see a gap is created between you (by "you", I mean the mental aspect of you that is aware of everything happening) and your processes. You'll see them happening, but you won't be identified with the thinking. And then, one day, eureka! you'll see gaps of just clear awareness between your trains of thought, then just cultivate that clarity. The more clarity, the less thought. Then one day you will be able to use your thoughts with total clarity as you need, if you need. And if you don't, you can put it aside. Any other issues that come up, whether emotional, or psychological, or whatever, just be aware of them, or place your awareness on them, and you will be able to sort everything out as it comes up. It's really THAT simple, you just have to add the element of being aware to your life and everything else falls into place

What I mean is by it's hard to be aware of thoughts is that I haven't slept more than 3-4 hours in 14 days and I feel there are still thoughts going on that i'm unaware of that help this process.

Simple enough but my mind is going constantly. I haven't had 5 minutes of peace.

clarity is the problem indeed.

it just annoys me to feel on auto pilot and so unconscious after being aware fully. I guess worrying and moping about my confusion and mental state only worsens it. I guess im still pouting somewhat but it's getting better as i go along.

I know I need to just let go of thoughts all together like I once did but the process is harder to do when having the task in front of you and trying to achieve something.

Can i still meditate and switch to just hearing meditation or must i truly choose one like you said broken child?

Gonna try just simply sitting with myself and watching

lol what the hell are you still trying to achieve? It's not an achievement, or an attainment, it's already happening naturally within you, you're just unaware of it. So the only real thing to do, is to be more aware of it.

Get some sleep man, it seems like you're trying so hard to achieve something you're driving yourself a little past your physical overdrive. Get some rest, let your body settle, let your mind settle...

Then when you wake up, just sit silently for like 10-15 minutes... before the mental chatter creeps back in. Then just watch the mental chatter. Just be aware of it.

Also you ask if you can just meditate, and switch to hearing meditation, or vice-versa.. it doesn't matter, because the basic thing is that whatsoever you do, you are aware while doing it. So you can do both, or you can try one, or the other, the basic thing is not the technique or the act, it's coming to a point where you are aware of what you are doing, and that you are aware of the awareness within you which is aware of all this stuff. It's not a riddle, btw.


Give it time, let everything settle, and get some sleep man! You can't function in any kind of state of normal if you are not well rested, or if you deny your rest. It's just going to cloud your clarity more. Listen to your body, and pay attention to it... if the mind is chattering, so what? let it chatter, you get your rest. Maybe put on some beautiful music in the background and lull yourself 2 sleep

what broken is saying is difficult to understand until you experience it yourself , i recommend you pay attention to sounds all the time and pay no attention to thoughts , take a few deep breaths here and there throughout the day

soon enough you'll have a complete grasp of what broken is saying , however to experience it rather that only understand it intellectually you have to practice meditation , paying attention to breath and sound is a good idea ,

to get your autopilot to turn off is precisely where these techniques help , also before sleeping to get good sleep keep on breathing deeply until you fall asleep

watching or just observing the chatter is difficult until you have enough grasp of being in the moment

right now it might be best to go on with paying attention to sounds and breathing , also few deep breaths here and there , i seriously hope you don't think meditating is like closing your eyes , sitting still and daydreaming

also watching the internal chatter does not mean getting too involved in it as you're watching television , it means that you know chatter is going on yet you discard it and focus on work

use your senses , God did'nt give you eyes,ears,nose,mouth and feeling for nothing , if you don't use your senses then who will ?

i hear timothy leary or Ram Dass(richard alpert) saying something like this -" when you get out of your mind you come to your senses "

many elders have said a countless times " be in your senses "

what do you think they are talking about ?

do you know what senses are and what is the mind ? and what is the difference between both ?

morpheus told neo -" i can only show you the door yet you're the one who has to walk through it " ,,,,,,,,considering this as i have watched the matrix a few too many times , this is my last post on this particular thread(hopefully) , as you have already been shown the door yet you're sitting outside worrying about this & that , rather then just walking through

"use your senses" ,

edit : https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=44877

edit : on a sidenote i was smoalking DMT a few days back and this thread was popping up in my mind from time to time, for some reason i remembered the part " i know nothing " - this really did strike a depressional chord within my being and i started to feel a bit despair aswell , yet what i said next dispelled all the confusion and everything .........what i said next to myself is - " i don't care about knowing anything much either " , " i know how to have fun and enjoy myself and i'll keep doing that beyond eternity "........this jolted me back up from despair to profound peace

(remember don't talk to yourself like this all the time , i was tripping hard and these thoughts popped up in my mind automatically , i neither care for not knowing or knowing , quite simply not caring so much about anything or any thought is the key )

^^^THIS! Absolutely this

I think I'm going to lock this thread for now, as it's turned into a 6 page circle jerk with no end in sight and has devolved into a lot of well intentioned enabling.

ledsmoke - What you need is not likely to be found in some esoteric debate on an internet forum. Log off for awhile. Get some sleep. Eat right. Go outside. Exercise. And consider seeking help from a mental health professional.