It certainly presents you with a much better chance of becoming a 'better' person. We can never completely eliminate judgment or feelings of superiority from ourselves. At least I think so. Just as we cannot completely separate good from evil in ourselves. It's all in what we do with those feelings and thoughts.

Well said.

Also Hugs, I hear what your saying and for the record on your reply to mine, I'm not saying my life experience is more important than any others. That's not only impossible to gauge but pointless.
I'm saying a person can know or feel they know their value as a person on this planet and that will be greater and lesser than others and to pretend this isnt true is denialism.

A pleasure to read you guys.



Agreed.

The first tag I used here in the Nexus was "I don't know". Some months ago I decided to remove it - because it started to make less and less sense to have it there. It can be a useful reminder, but it's not true. However, I still think the biggest teaching I have received has to do with the true scale of the potentially knowable. Maybe I haven't found any real enlightenment yet. Going back to the OP question, an analogy comes to mind.

This primitive farmer has a fruit orchard and a horse. He's curious, and he rides his horse to new places around. He wants to extend and improve a little map he's drawing. He becomes an explorer and travels around his valley, eventually he even crosses the mountain range and realizes the world is bigger than he thought. He rides and rides enough to have some idea of how big it truly is. He might even have a glimpse at the fact it seems to be a sphere.

Then, some day he finds a rocket and an instructions manual. Soon after that he leaves the planet at a speed 1000 times faster than he ever could move before, and he moves around enough to acquire some astronomical knowledge and to realize there's a universe out there that might have no limits, and turns the big earth into a grain of sand, and the strides of his horse into amoeba spasms.

His map is bigger than ever, but he's also further than ever from completing it. He eventually accepts the possibility that he might not finish the map even if he lived a thousand years, but then he thinks perhaps he'll find another transport upgrade and keeps going.

Until he starts to think about his fruit trees. Then he turns around and gets back to his orchard to tend to them.

As he prunes them and sows new seed, is he more or less burdened than before he rode away? Where is the responsibility the "burden" is referring to? In the trees or in the map? What will bring more benefits to himself, or to his tribe?

If some day he had an insight telling him where it is, he would not feel burdened anymore - unless he consciously neglected that responsibility. In the meantime, the burden seems inevitable since he doesn't know where the priority is. And in order to deal with it, he decides to split his time between the map and the trees, visiting a new planet after every harvest.

This is at least how it works for me so far. Maybe some day I'll have an experience that defines my responsibility.

for me its a way of life not a burden

Im not special because of what I know, different, unique? maybe. Special? Naaaa.

Don't let your heads get too big people.

On a planet with billions of humans and billions of possible variances in the human race our group is almost guaranteed to exist.

We are just one of many possibilities out there.

Special is all about perception.

We are just another group of parasites with a little different skill set.

Is the fact that you have used DMT really a burden? Really? Come on.

Lighten up folks

Hehehe

IH

It's all the stuff that comes after the use of DMT that can feel like a burden. It becomes harder to relate to people in some instances.

But I really like that Vodsel. We should never lose sight of our orchards.

It becomes harder to relate with people or relate with yourself?

The different person is you, not them. You shouldn't be burdened by a person being different, being themselves, especially since its not their fault your neurotransmission is different, its your fault, you chose to alter yourself by doing DMT.

Your burdening yourself.

Just sayin

IH

If I were interested in DMT but had not experienced it, reading this thread may suggest to me that DMT is comparable to some other drugs insofar as it messes up the user who could feel less functional after using it. I reckon this impression may arise from the use of the word 'burden' which, to me, implies a difficult and tiring process which is in some ways hard to bear.

A good blast of DMT as many here know is a profound and uncommon experience but I find the psychic cleansing from a positive session liberating and it is in some ways the antithesis of being a burden.Being made aware of ones incomplete appreciation of matters and being content with this gives me a lightness of being that the non-explorer cannot fathom so perhaps they are more weary/burdened than me, without even knowing it?!

I think the 'burden' refers to a new level of awareness.
Similar to how as we grow older from the beauty and bliss of being a child, we become more aware of the world, its realities, its responsibilities, and its hardships; you know, that 'burden' of becoming an adult, when your mind starts changing into adulthood. It's never the same as it once was when it was the youthful child.

The more we know, the more aware(through entheogenic use, for example) we become of how little we may know and how this game is played, it becomes ever more apparent all of the bs that makes the world go round.
THAT's moreso the burden to me. I think it sources from the ties of life in society that gives the burden its weight. In an ideally free living society (or one not so sheepish..), i think the 'burden' of the enlightenment (a loaded word, yes... define it as you please) we gain, from psychedelic experiences particularly, is lifted. The societal pressures and comparisons, social games and norms, unnecessary structures and rules governing our existence would no longer be limiting and straining on our personal growth and its expression.

On a different note, this community is an exception to the large population of substance users. I know and see tons of shitheads using psychedelics with the main purpose of getting high, as a mere escape. Many people lack the curiosity, strength, discipline, respect, and intellect to not only make something out of their experience, but to learn something as well. With how widespread and mainstream substances have become, all kinds of mindless people of all ages are messing with sacraments they would never even see the true value of.

This is a good thread. Its also kind of funny. We all seem to be talking about slightly different things.

The OP is asking about the knowledge we carry feeling cumbersome, others making points that our life experiences no better than others, some, myself included, explaining that human worth can me measured and is not equal, and now the warning for nobody feel special because we have seen things.
I bring this recap up because I don't feel anyone here is saying nor thinks in terms of their life being better or special.
For one that's subjectional, two, better and worse are quite inadequate descriptions of what's beings discussed although perhaps accurate in a sense.

The other problem is when some people think the replies are referring to total absolutes and others in generally speaking.

Generally speaking, I would say serious DMT practicioners and psychedelic users walk around with a healthier more in depth sense of what we and reality may be than the norm.
With that idea I would also say that these people, generally, are more of a positive contributor in various ways for the greater collective.

When I speak to persons that has never had the veil lifted, yes I do think I have a better understanding and possibly more wisdom than they. Pound for pound I wouldn't go saying I am a better man then they but in some scenarios I would if we can agree that the word better in this case refers to what's more healthy for the collective not a personal thing.

Point being, yes I feel I know more than some people maybe even a lot of people, yes, its often times because of my experience with these substances and taken large amounts of time for personal integration and reflection.

Is that any different or worse than a person with a degree in a various field saying he same thing? Wouldn't a nuero scientist exclaiming we are all equal seem a bit patronizing? Is my time developing and understanding that much different from a person with a deep understanding of a subject.

Now before people start trying to flame me for comparing myself to a scientist I'm just using it as an example. I don't really feel I have put in equal time and study as they have but some psychonaughts have. And I would say I have at least an associates if not a bachelors degree in conscious exploration, lol.

So let's get to the upcoming elitist comments ahead of time.
Basically I'd just field this topic to HF because he has brilliantly rebuted it so many times before.
I don't feel what I'm saying is elitist but I do think the mousey types that tip toe around life, hands writhing at their belly, in fear they may, God for bid, offend anyone or sound superiour, will.

Again this modern obsession that everyone is equal and must feel so, is taken to absurd extremes. I'm not elite, that's a word. I am a person that's put the time and energy in and not scared to say I have because of fear some person may get der wittle feewings huwrt.
If a person confidently professing their knowledge and ability in an area makes someone near them feel small, well thats on them. Its not my job to make sure people feel of worth and equal in life around me or anyone.
I don't feel inadequate as a person at physics lectures as I'm struggling to even keep up with the speaker. I know my place. That's how it should be.

But in a world where children's football games aren't allowed to keep score for the chance a child may feel lesser, its no wonder we are actually debating this type of thing. Its no wonder people are demonized for thinking rationally and not down playing their place. No wonder ELITISM is the battle cry of the O so humble kumbay ya singing mother fkrs.
This world has gone fookin bonkers with the attempts to appease everyone's feelings and taken on the role of self worth support team.

When I say I, I mean we. Many of us here and in the community of psyhcedelics and meditation, which I feel is another approach to this understanding and should be included. Meditation is different but to me right there.

So this rant isn't exactly just about things in this thread only. Its digressed to the modern day as aspects of this thread i feel has become a problem with our society. We are raising weak little cry babies that will hold themselves back in life just so others feel good.

Oh, I freely admit it's an internal issue. It's I who have been changed, my perception, my way of thinking, not them. The fact remains, it can be hard to relate to them once these changes take place. I don't mean in some emotional sense. I find that greatly enhanced. My compassion and ability to accept them as they are. But when you work in a restaurant kitchen, with a bunch of 'meatheads' (they would freely call themselves this), they'll talk incessantly about sports and 'nailing' chicks, try to drag you into games of ego...exactly as the OP is talking about. That's what becomes difficult to bear, a burden in a sense.

But I learned to adapt. I would joke and take the glib insults, not take it too seriously and just survive in that environment. But in doing so, it can make you feel like you've taken a few steps back at times. Which is why I've left that profession and have found something a lot more conducive to my ways of thinking and feeling.


See, without having to deal with this sort of thing when I was younger, I may not have strove so hard to improve myself as a human being. The atmosphere of competition has that benefit for many people. It can make you feel like a loser at times, sure But if you dust yourself off and keep trying, because you are now aware of that higher level of achievement, then it becomes a positive thing. Competition drives us to work harder and achieve more, even if it is for our own selfish egotistical reasons.

I'm all for making everyone feel welcome. Everyone should be allowed a place. But not every place is going to be equal, and if you're a newcomer, and don't understand certain things, you start at the bottom and work your way up. Again, I'll refer to a restaurant kitchen. There's a hierarchy there and you have to know your place. The dishwasher isn't going to start calling orders on the line, it's just not done that way. Just like the executive chef won't be seen in the dishpit scrubbing nasty pots and pans. Although, I have seen that happen There's a level of command, so to speak, for a reason. Those with more experience and knowledge are at the top, and the others strive to learn as much as they can from them and eventually attain their level of mastery. At least that's generally how it works.

We have to understand our place in society and our limitations. That's just part of the human experience. But when we take these huge leaps in understanding with a powerful psychedelic, it can take some time to integrate and learn how to deal with those insights. Like the dishwasher being thrown onto the line in the middle of a lunch rush, we're grasping to hold on and just survive the experience

I Dunno, man...

It sure is hard to jockey three gas chromatographs for 8 hours, when Deja Vu decides to go from intermittent sensation to full-blown constant sensory experience, or when sensation to the hands is flicking on and off, or when the searing, shooting pains get so bad I literally can't see straight...

I guess it's just a matter of perspective, but it sure seems to me like it's both.

Ok i recant all that i have written and in reply to the OP- No i do not find the "special knowledge" a burden, because although i am pretty sure that DMT has not made me a better person as i feel i was fairly ok before. I enjoy what it does for me. It is therapeutic, sometimes cures my more depressive moments, it gives me insights into my peronal life, it has cured hangover headaches and on many occasions it gives me an enjoyable beffuddlement. As far as i can see , it very much depends on what kind of person you are as to what you get out of the experience. But maybe i"m not doing it right.

Sorry i have to go back on my recantment about my cob about superiority.

Olyman , i love a good rant myself, but it"s got bugger all to do with kids football scores but more to do with keeping an open mind and understanding how people have ended up in a particular mindset. No matter how blinkered , sheeplike and worthless they are or appear to be.

Perhaps i am a kumbyar mofo but i think the value and worth an individual places in themselves is very personal and there are many folk who think a load of psychedelic headed people have no worth or anything of value to offer the world. Who is right and who is wrong?

"Perhaps i am a kumbyar mofo but i think the value and worth an individual places in themselves is very personal and there are many folk who think a load of psychedelic headed people have no worth or anything of value to offer the world. Who is right and who is wrong?"

There is an obvious difference between actions that benefit the collective and ones that are harmful for the collective. These actions can easily be labled "right" and "wrong" when they either help or harm the majority of humans and the rest of the non human population of this planet.

This is just a FACT.

Just because there are people out there who think that "psychedelic healed people" have no worth does not mean they have any clue what they are talking about. Most likely they are just ignorant. This is how life is.

If you cant discern ever between who is right and who is wrong than you might want to work on that. It really is not that hard to make out what much of the "wrong" behaviour in this world is..and it is fultile in the scope of this discussion to seperate people from actions..reguardless of WHY they are acting that way..it does not make it right.

I am not talking about personal value or worth. I am talking about being able to discern the difference between what kind of behavior is good for all life on this planet and what kind of behavior is detrimental for most while only beneficial to the few. Many common folk hold belief systems that are detrimental to many others. I don't now why people are even trying to argue against this. I am sure you all know that this is a truth on some level.

Personal worth is something entirely different. Your own worth is your won worth..and you can have it as long as your own sense of worth or entitlement is not seeping out into the world in a way that is effecting the rights of other humans and non human persons in this world to develop they're own self worth, whatever that means to them. I know all kinds of common folk personally who support fascist drug laws, the "war on terror"..people who support cutting down parts of the last intact watershed on earth in a temperate rainforest just so they can retire earlier..people who are racist..people who cant be bothered to recycle..the list goes on and on. Some of these people are family. It doesn't mean I hate them..but yeah I think they are wrong, and more..I KNOW they are wrong...and I don't feel ashamed to say it. My personal philosophy is not one that is so heady that I cant make the distinction.

I also understand how deep the cultural programming runs..so I cant entirely blame people. Sometimes I think these parts of them must run on autopilot. Humans can be entirely complex creatures..they can say something incredible one minute..and then do something entirely contradictory the next. We all do it to some degree.

Othertimes people might just be born psychopaths..who's to say that it doesn't happen?

That was more of a rhetorical question that i was asking.

You can go about your life in a positive way in relation to the planet and discuss your intelligent views, but the point i am trying to make is that feeling superior to others while you are about it does not serve a purpose. Knowing that someone is wrong but feeling that you are better than them because of it is one of our society"s malaises. Feeling like you are better than others is, in part, down to cultural conditioning.

I am sorry to say this but i think feelings of superiority either come from people who are still young and not at home in their own skin, or have inferiority complexes. And if the "special knowledge" of psychedelics helps to reinforce these feelings, then yes i would say for some that they can become a burden without them even realising it.

I will bow out of this discussion as, if this thread continues, i would be more interested to hear more about what special knowledge is and how it can burden people.

i know in my previous posts in this thread , i haven't addressed the OP's issue about DMT Knowledge being a burden .......yet i feel i must do so as this thread has evolved a lot from that into a whole thing about judgements , superior and inferior and what not , i feel its time i add something or just go on one of my stoned rants about nothing

from what i feel this knowledge is not quite a burden , infact for me its a kind of a liberation , i feel liberated from much human gibberish of an interpretation that we have , i feel free of my story , for as long as i can remember i have been having a story of who i am and what i do

as i child i was given a name , education helped instill fear and panic for surviving on this planet at any cost , endless hours of reading books educating myself to survive on the planet and get a degree and all that , after that countless hours of working in different proffesions trying to make a buck , sleepless nights thinking about future plans and current affairs , the diseases , plagues , wars , famine and other crap that runs rampant over the place

well what DMT did to it was it blasted everything to kingdom come and what i am a left with as an understanding of life so far is . ... i am a being experiencing life and its just a trip , i wake up and i am just being .... all that endless thinking about career , current affairs and much of society's problems is dropping each and every moment as i start to forget everything , even myself as that was just a dream

the more DMT i smoke the more trippy its all becoming and i wish to keep walking this path , i have made friends with the sparrows and they cheer me up everyday , i look at the sky and the stars , and the world is starting to look like super mario's landscape , also i can see and hear everything in high definition ,

i don't wish anything or society to change as its my experience only anyways , judging is such a waste of time when we could just be enjoying away , yes i am a little selfish and i really don't care about society or what they do , even if they destroy everything it does'nt really matter as i have found peace anyways , i will have fun and chill forever while other people keep working harder everyday , i don't wish to enlighten or free them since its not my place anyways , i don't feel superior or inferior .......just different

i don't judge anyone anymore , i only hope they find their way
its not my place to criticize their actions
its not my place to care that much
i do what i can and that is why i keep having fun always
i can't wait and tell them whats it all about or why i keep laughing always
all i can do is be on my way , i know the path now and i am walking it
no time to please or displease others , i am just floating away
reality melts everyday a little and i am dreaming away ,
i feel more awake than i have ever been ,
i have left misery and its up to others to find their own way
i have'nt got much time to judge , criticize or care away
time is precious and i love the moment anyways

This.

The sad truth is that most people in the world... the VAST majority of people if I am being honest... are either stupid, crazy or evil. Many people are all of the above. It is hard for most people to see this because they are so conditioned to our current level of humanity that it doesn't jump out at them. However, I promise you that the humans from 500 years in our future (if we make it that long) will look back on us the way we look back to medieval nutjobs and their torture chambers and black plague.

From the lens of the future, we are all rather pathetic.

DMT shows you this in no uncertain terms... not the least of ways it does this, is by introducing you to beings that are not ignorant. I suppose if you have not met superhuman mind reading entities in Hyperspace (or not remembered doing so), then you may not have this particular revelation. All I can say is that when you meet a being that makes Einstein look like an autistic gerbil... it puts humanity into context.

Recognizing that most people on this planet are morons is not a point of pride... it doesn't make me arrogant, because it is like being a really bright kindergarten kid who can read and write well, but who regularly hangs out with 80 year old super geniuses and boddhisatvas. DMT (when done correctly) humbles the hell out of you.

But, it does give you a sense of responsibility.

I was serious when I was talking about making the entities proud. I really feel embarrassed for the species and want to "clean up our room" and give the future of humanity the best chance for success we can. This makes me a futurist. I see my debt being to generations yet unborn, even more than the mindless sheeple in Walmart. Don't get me wrong, I love everyone and am a humanitarian. I am just also a bit misanthropic. I don't see this as a contradiction. (If people didn't suck so bad, humanitarianism would be anachronistic.)

So this is the crux of the matter. The BURDEN.

Personally, I said it was "somewhat of a burden" in my first post here. I stand by that, but would like to clarify what I mean when I say burden.

For me, a burden is something heavy you have to carry around... even if you might rather put it down (at least for a while). I think it is not a tragic thing to have a burden... if anything, it makes you strong. The core of most fitness regimens involves strapping yourself with some kind of burden and using this extra weight to improve your physique. Even isometrics and swimming are adding extra burdens to your movements and thus give you a workout.

So... I don't look at the burden as something negative per se. It is somewhat of a burden for me in that my life is somewhat more difficult than it would be if I was a normal sleepwalker. If I could buy the BS "hook, line and sinker" and just go through the motions without being aware of all the suffering and senseless drama... if I didn't physically feel the pain of the Earth as we do our best to kill it... my life would be easier.

If I didn't have the direct and clear communications of numerous powerful light beings urging me to help this situation and do something about the dreadful state of humanity... I would be somewhat more carefree.

But that is not the case. And, as long as I continue to voyage regularly into Hyperspace, I will not be allowed the luxury of being unconscious. If you haven't been given useful information or actual missions to carry out by your friends in Hyperspace... then I can understand if you don't relate. (I would say you might want to delve deeper and work on your ability to recall your Hyperspatial experiences... as they can be rather slippery--like dreams--and most people only remember a tiny fraction of what really goes down.)

I really enjoyed the orchard and space travel analogy BTW. Great stuff. I would only add that once the farmer decided to colonize other planets and had a huge biosphere orchard to tend on a large moon around a gas giant... he might not feel so inclined to come back to his terrestrial orchard. My case is more like the farmer who met the aliens and has been instructed by them for decades with the clear idea that he needs to plant trees all over the Earth... like Johnny fricking Appleseed.

Okay. I will shut up now.

HF

There is no burden in the knowledge.
The burden is an unwillingness, an aversion towards something.
Only you can know what that something is.

For example, to see yourself in the eyes of every person is not a burden.
It is a gift. To worry that they don't see themselves in yours is a burden.

To know that people should be running and playing with each other, to know we are here to make love to every moment is not a burden.
To not do so despite the knowledge is a burden. On everyone. *See first example.

I think this thread taps a rich vein, even when it generates unwillingness to think that it does (cf the ideas somewhere above that to be 'burdened' = to think you're special = to not get it).

Behind the sense of burden is, I think, tacit awareness that in differentiating yourself from the crowd so radically you are potentially exposed to violence. In the first place of the state. But more generally from those who fear because they have no experience of these realms, and don't want to have any experience, because they fear.

The best cure for this is, wherever possible and prudent, to be brave and speak out. Refuse to mirror the mass in its unknowing. This way you will often find the curious person beneath the footy fan persona. And when you meet kindred spirits, the sense of isolation, and with it the burden, lifts.

By the by and off track I guess, another kind of issue raised, by HF's comments especially, is this: what kind of political structures ought we to aim at with entheogenenic communities? And more broadly - and shouldn't we be asking this question too?? - what kind of overall social structures would entheogenic communities hope to prefigure for ailing societies, these societies whose lifesystems are truly 'burdened' by thanatocratic ruling 'elites'?

As for entheogenic communities, recognition of the difference between novices and experienced psychonaughts seems a no brainer. But equally, the sterility and blindness of the guru relationship seems pretty obvious too. The beauty of the plants is that an intelligent and intuitive novice can understand what no old hand has ever dreamed of. In this sense they are very democratic, and any entheogenic community should make sure it is always open to hearing the kid who points out that the emperor has no clothes.

Meritocratic egalitarianism might hit the spot. Perhaps that is what the Nexus is growing itself into...

Reading this post has been quite interesting.

I believe everyone who's commented here is correct in their own way.

The knowledge you get from a powerful trip can be seen as a burden when you realize the vast majority of people you know have no idea that they have no idea.

On the other hand, this expanded awareness is also liberating, because suddenly what's possible is far greater than you could possibly imagine.

Bottom line is, knowledge is power. (Notice how fear is always present in the absence of knowledge/understanding)
The more you know, the less you know.

Love to all

Yes, this is what I have come to as well. Refining the concept of a meritocracy has been a pet subject of mine for quite some time now.

It was obvious to me decades ago that Democracy is insufficient. It means well, in the ideal... but I don't think that everyone should have equal say on every subject for the reasons discussed in our "elitism" tangent.

Basically put, as worthy as a mentally handicapped child may be, his opinion on fiscal policy is not equal to that of a Nobel Prize winning economist... no liberal guilt and hand-wringing can alter this. We should embrace this.

I think an ideal Utopian meritocracy (with or without entheogens) should be structured in such a way that everyone gets a vote proportional to their knowledge on the topic being voted upon. We can argue about how merit should be accrued or recognized, but this seems like the most intelligent way to go forward.

No representative government. The public votes on everything they feel like voting about, have interest in... and their knowledge and eminence on the subject is factored in. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the highest experts got 100x the vote of normal folks. In fact... I think you should have to take a short test on the subject in order to have any vote at all. If you can't pass the most cursory of tests on what the bill proposes... then your vote is worthless anyway.

Anyway... we have finally succeeded in completely derailing this thread. I propose that Chadaev and anyone else interested in discussing meritocratic politics or other related utopian fantasies join me in another thread.

Peace y'all.
HF

Note: I went ahead and started another thread. Utopian Political Philosophies. Please feel free to chime in!