Great thread!


I dropped out in kind of a weird way. In high school, I was heading toward something related to engineering, but late in high school, I started reading philosophy and listening to some very outlandish or underground music and became somewhat of a freak, punk, straight-edge, activist, philosophical type. I was somewhat of a slacker, but I was generally considered as brighter than most of my peers. I was often reading books during classes that I wasn't interested in (ironically, one of them was chemistry). I left home for college to study English in a town where I had a bunch of punk friends, but I never managed to integrate into the whole college thing and was drifting into a very nihilistic state of mind. I was developing a great disgust for myself and the way I was simply going through the motions and not very well, at that.

I dropped out of college and enlisted in the Marines. I did this in order to break off from my family and to pursue a more rigorous, disciplined, and action-oriented life. I had protested the war in high school before the invasion and took all the apathy and insincerity and ignorance I encountered quite hard, and so I decided to try and experience the war first-hand and reinvent myself in the meantime. When I got out of training, however, I took my first chance to get out of the country and opted to be stationed in Japan (I always had a love for Japan, its traditional culture and the strange impact that the Bomb had on their modern culture). My unit never deployed, and I instead spent my entire career in the Far-East. This is where I gave up my "edge" and was thoroughly introduced to various states of intoxication. This is where I met SWIM.

Eventually, I got caught up in some sort of sting/set-up (essentially entrapment), and got demoted three ranks, thrown in the brig, and eventually discharged (not dishonorable and no criminal record) before I had reached three years in. I don't regret anything of that time and still consider my whole military career and discharge to be the most important and pivotal moment of my life. I spent about two years working in the labor force (factory work, truck driving, construction, and maintenance), got myself an apartment, and had a blast though with occasional difficulties.

Near the end of this time, I got married and finally began to organize my life and take control of my future and endeavors. I began to realize that though I have a certain affinity for manual labor, I could never really mesh with my co-workers (always felt a degree of resentment), possibly because I could never "turn off," I suppose. In the military, I was usually able to engage in fairly interesting conversation, and even when I couldn't, there was still at least a level of comardery. Most people I ever worked with in the labor force were either drones or scumbags...often both. So I decided to go back to school--this time for Chemistry (probably good timing too, considering the economy).

I feel better about my life now than I ever have. School's tough, and I'm still not quite well-adapted to it (never have been). My marriage is great, and we've helped develop a fairly strong community around us (we're building a tribe of sorts). We make and record music, which is something I had already been working on since Japan but have only recently developed into a project of a significant scale. I never had much classical training in music, but I've taught myself to play and maintenance a number of instruments. I'm in better shape than even when I was in the military. I cook and eat well but live relatively meagerly, focusing most of my effort into the quality and sustainability of my various projects.


Truly dropping out and hitting the road has always been enticing for me, but I have deliberately tied myself to a way of life that exploits the possibilities of even the small amount of material wealth available to me. These days, dropping out is something I feel is more appropriate at a considerable age when I have already established a modest estate or a legacy. For now, I wish to maintain an amount of versatility and gather what I can from my current lifestyle before pursuing the sort of sainthood that the road and wilderness have to offer. This is how Indian society idealy operates: You play the game and make the best of it, then, you drop out and pursue enlightenment. After that, you either die, or return as a wild saint of sorts with a whole new life and insight to contribute. This isn't far from how shamans become shamans, in fact, 'shramana' (like Buddha) is thought to be of similar origin to 'shaman.'

There are some great Kerouac-esque novels hidden inside people in this thread.

Deedledoo- you know me, I can't help raise points when I see them, I do agree with you really, it does seem like that in general. I have got a similar impression from the squat parties I've been to. I did go to one once where they were actually doing some exciting arty stuff, but recently there's even an air of profiteering about that place- they're now charging people as much money to get into their parties as people have to pay for licensed nightclubs, as well as selling drinks at full price. All without paying taxes etc, yet providing no facilities etc, so you wonder what they're doing with all that money... and they don't give a damn about security- my friend saw a girl about to get assaulted by three men in there in a corner, being held down and strugling to get away, but fortunately a male friend of hers saw before it got bad, intervened, and the men decided to back down rather than cause a scene. And that's at the nicest place I've been to! There's always been a strange feeling of menace in these places for me. When I was working in nightclubs a lot of the foreigners (mainly the Spanish and Italians) were living in squats, and some of them were good friends of mine, but others really weren't trustworthy people. Although the English lot were the worst in terms of what I saw. That's why I left the nightclubbing life... once I'd been there long enough to become part of the core of permanently employed nightclub barpeople (rather than the short-termers: students and people just passing through on their travels), I started seeing some nasty stuff. Hence why I go on about the two sides of the 'hip' life... the good and the bad rubbing shoulders. It's good to hear you affirming my experiences because that makes me think I'm hopefully not just being negative, snobby or something like that.

I do know of a few people who became self-sufficient, but it's heresay really, these personal stories from the horse's mouth are much more interesting.

They still don't, not at the schools I went to anyway.

nope they still dont everywhere...

... yeah, open to violence and terrorism!

And I use the t word VERY rarely. Those people are worse than the people they're fighting against.

I'm currently a college student, completely unsure of what I'm doing. I want to work in the music industry, doing live sound or working at a studio, but typically it is very difficult to land such jobs. I've been considering dropping like $18,000 on an audio engineering certification school. Seems like a big waste of money, but if the education pays off and lands me a decent paying job that I enjoy somewhat, I think it's a fair trade. Right now I have about $4,000 saved up for education, and have been considering just blowing it all on an apprenticeship with a tibetan healer over in Nepal, or something of similar nature, and saying fuck school. /me doesn't know what to do.

don't go to audio school.

I was halfway through my audio engineering course at a 'digital arts' college when I dropped out.
they would have speakers come in from the industry, very successful and famous people, it was very cool. they would tell stories and give encouraging advice... but it finally hit me halfway through. 95% of the people up there telling stories... they were all stories about how they got into the business, and how they got in had very little to do with their hard knowledge of the tools involved. it had nearly everything to do with being in the right place at the right time, and knowing the right people.

it's all about who you know.

it then hit me that most of colleges are playing the wrong game. they're a business, not an education. their advertising program is that they will 'help you get a job'. but it's mostly baloney unless you're persuing a field of hard sciences...

halfway through was also at the point where my savings would be gone and I would need to take out loans to continue at the school. I looked at people who were still paying off student loans, running around busy and overworked, overstressed... and it was completely unappealing. as much as money does not matter, there is much to be said for being debt free!

I returned to my hometown, a couple of years before I left to go to college I had taken some stage-tech classes at the citycollege, ended up running the soundboard for plays and such. so I got back in touch with the teacher there and ended up getting a referral to work with IATSE, the local chapter of the stagehands union. I'm now on my way towards becoming a journeyman stage electrician..and making money while I learn! there is as much socializing as there is work to be done, it's definitely all about who you know.
and it is a tribe of sorts. i've been with them long enough that I can transfer pretty much anywhere if I ever want to move.

times are different. the internet is to the point where, if you are a good distiller of knowledge, you can teach yourself almost anything. I barely didn't graduate highschool, ended up taking the GED. went to some silly liberal-arts expensive college, realized it was a joke and left...and am making union wages. and I got here by basically "reading the manual". when I was growing up I was always inclined to read the manual for whatever new gadget showed up in the house, find all it's functions and mess with it. the internet is a manual for nearly everything if you know where to look...

Xantus you are right, Collages are a business. If they weren't, they would not be there for you to learn from.
They are not there to hold your hand & continue being your mother, it's not high school.

I am a professional CD Mastering engineer & I also teach at a collage recoding program, Studio Recording 1 & Digital Audio Workstation/Theory classes.
I am there to pass on my knowledge, not babysit you. And definitely not to get you a job!!
That part is up to you & no, it's not easy, it takes a whole lot of dedication & hard work!! Like years of it, not just months.
BTW, this knowledge took me the last 25 years to acquire through hard work & a lot of emptying trash cans at full-time studio internships, making no money, and working another full-time job to pay the bills.
And I am still learning new techniques all the time, I don't plan to ever stop learning about manipulating audio. If I do, I'm sure the industry will keep on going & leave me behind. Life's work...

Funny thing though, when I went to recoding school, I was planning on having to do that in order to build my career.
That is something I do not see in many of my students, they just want a fast answer.
I'd say 95% of my students are there to be told how to make records.
The other 5% are there to put in the effort to LEARN how to make records.
There is a distinct difference.
It all about what you put into it, not who you know.

But this goes for everything in life, not just the recording industry.
Success (how ever you define it) does have a lot to do with who you know, but when it comes to making professional sounding records for a living, if you can't back up that people-connection with solid knowledge, those people are not going to be able to keep that job for you.
What those speakers at your school were trying to convey to you, was how they did not learn what they know over night, or get where the are in one step. It took many stages to gain the full understanding of this science/art that they telling you about.

TheNtt, if you'd like some advice from someone who has actually been working & making a living in the audio industry for the past 20 years, get that education!! You'll be light years ahead of the guys trying to figure it out on their own!!
Just because every computer comes with recording software, does not mean that it is something anyone can do, or that it is easy.
Quite the opposite in fact. Digital audio has a million & one ways to fuck things up without you knowing it right away!
There is a complete science to it, there is a complete art to as well, that isn't something your just going to pick up from reading a manual or two.
(BTW, I'm user manual nerd, I know how to run gear I've never actually seen in person. That has nothing to do with using it in a real world situation though.)

First, you get an education to learn the basics. This is not going to put you in the 1st chair of a multi-million dollar studio. Believe it or not, education & experience are 2 different things, & both are necessary.
Then you start to gain experience by interning & working the unimpressive jobs around a studio.
Then, if you have some talent, & more importantly, you are good at reading & dealing with different people's personality's (this is why you need to hang around studio interning, can't teach this in a class), then, you can start making a modest income from the talents that you've been honing to a fine point for the past few years.
Now the people you know might come into play, because you can now show others you have skills instead of hoping someone gets you a job. No one is going to pay you to learn how to make a record for them & good luck trying to fake that one.
There a plenty of people making a good living that didn't follow this carer path, I myself deviated from it from time to time. But the larger majority of people making a living doing this trade, lived some variation on this theme!!

Anyway, in my late teens/early twenties I did my fair share of counter-culture living & its very, very rare to meet people really living out that lifestyle, who are much more than just plain lazy. They are there, but not usually in "the group".
It is also pretty rare, in my experience, for many of these people to just waltz back into society with ease.
I know that this is not going to be a very popular opinion on this forum, but it is my opinion, gained from my experiences.
One other thing I've experienced is the way no one is really interested in hiring an adult (30-40yrs) who has not had a steady, real job for the past 10-15 years, regardless of the education you might have on paper, or how you may have educated yourself by reading random books.
It says to them, I am just now learning to be an adult.
Whether that's true, or not, that is what the average potential employer sees.

Not judging anyone, just passing on a unique vantage point of having lived, deeply involved on both sides of the culture-coin.


I'll shut up my old yapper now...

WS

Thanks for the response WS. I'm currently taking audio production 1, and music technology at a community college. The real reason I want to get the education is because I want to share the compositions in my head with anyone who will listen. I believe music is an extremely powerful art form, quite capable of changing lives. I want to compose, record, produce and release all of my own music, and obviously the education would be a positive impact on that aspect. The other aspect is real life. I have issues working for large companies- I'm not willing to sacrifice my beliefs for a job. This is why a career in the audio industry seems suitable. For one it's interesting, but more importantly it allows you to be creative. I've made my mind up that I want to go to the audio school, but I can't help but question if it's worth it. I find myself thinking about what else I could do with that money, and what would really benefit me more. It's extremely difficult in this society to follow your dreams. It's easier to play it safe, in order to make sure you have shelter and food.

incredible thread! so nice to hear a bit more from all of you, some great stories!

I completely agree with the criticism to education and the molding of people's subjectivities! When I was a kid I had a lot of troubles with school, nearly got kicked out a few of times. but somehow I also always got good grades and some teachers took a liking of me, so I managed to get through.

Then at 18 I went into university, study psychology. I always had an interest in consciousness, had already taken psychedelics, so felt like a good thing to study... So I tried to absorb all of valuable, passed the useless but obligatory lessons. I was lucky to find a part time job at a lawyers office where I worked for a year, with computer and network maintenance, and save some money while studying.

So I took a 6 months break and did my first backpacking in europe with this money I saved, with some amazing psychonautic experiences like in acid in a tiny village in the mountains of Switzerland, in psy festivals all around, or also Amsterdam (in Dreamland it was nearly a mythical place in our group haha). In this trip I met my wife, in a festival, and fell completely in love.

With no visa to stay longer, I had to go back to Dreamland, starting a long-distance relationship until we moved in together a few years later. So I finished my studies and had two great experiences which was to write a final monography about the therapeutic potential of entheogens (in a quite closed minded big catholic university), and work for a year with supergifted kids from the slums of Rio, trying to help the develop their conscience, critical reasoning and so on.


I have big respect for you people who saw the school is not your way, and took your life in your hands and did something! I definitely think that in many cases education serves to hinder the internal growth of people. But I think that needn't be! This is what I want to work on.

I didnt drop out because I had the luck of not needing to get in debt to have education, and always had certain academic abilities that got me through. Since so many of the good people (like many of you guys) end up giving up on education, then a lot of the real spirit in the academic world is lost. So thats why since I was able to get through, I feel i have to 'represent', use the positions im gaining to bring some good to the world.

I for sure said this already but, what I want to do in life is to contribute to the educational system, exactly because I know that people like you guys have so much potential that could have been made use of and developed through a more integrative open minded education. Imagine of all of the hours that kids spend in school were used in a healthy beneficial way instead of to mold them, make them conform and blindly memorize? How much better our society surely would be!

TheNtt, if what you are interested in is producing your own music, than what I said is only partially true...
Finishing that Studio Recording 101, depending on the program you are attending, could provide you with all the basic signal-flow knowledge that will allow you to interpret ever audio mixer out there & work with it relatively easily.
However that usually does not start getting into when/why to use which processors etc... That can sometimes be a good thing creatively though!!

One last piece of advice for you, trying to do everything;
write & perform the music,
produce the album,
engineer the recording & mixing,
mastering the songs into a CD & duplication,
advertising & selling CD & other chachkees,
touring & shows...etc...does not usually equal a great end result.
Having different people involved, with their individual ideas & input, is what makes a legendary album, that resonates deeply with a large number of people!!
It is very hard to fully immerse yourself in the creative songwriting process and also be objective enough to make a fully realized recording. And the reverse is the same to.
I got into recording so I could record my band, we got to the point of doing independent CD's & tours, we were in meetings with some smaller record company's & one of the guy's wigged out & it all fell apart...classic story.
So I started doing it all myself, the music was alright, not great, but alright. the recording at that time were shit (I was just getting started)!!
Soon, I started trying to record every idea I had.
I would get a idea for a piece of music, or a whole song, I'd start getting a tone on the recording....an hour later I had a great sounds guitar, but the song had fluttered away into the ether...

I see this in a lot of my student & clients for that matter.
Buying a ProTools system to record themselves instead of paying a professional to do it well.
Five years & thousands of dollars & hours of learning later, they are starting to get a pretty decent idea of how to really manipulate the equipment to get a professional result. But the band is long gone.
I was lucky to be focused enough & willing to keep working to get were I am.
(BTW, that was not an easy thing, an 8 year heroin addiction lurking in the background kept me only a 1/2 step away from ditching it all many. many times!!)

Its a fine line in a rapidly changing industry, that's really up in the air right now because of this trend...

WS

I've often noticed that underneath the festivals and squats and drop outs a scene riddled with crime and human decadence. People claim to be all about being freedom and all about enjoying life and loving fellow man but beneath the surface they are riddled with drug addiction, lazyness, and anti social behavior such as crime. Now I love music festivals but so often I see a group of people or a family whose been on tour for months or years and they can barely take care of themselves no less their children. Or the old timer whose been to all the shows and had the best time but really he is a lonely self indulgent drug addict.

There is a dark side to this scene.

I also happen to like school. But I am into hard sciences so research university atmospheres is where such work can thrive. I think the problem in modern society is their is too much emphasis on having a degree even when having a degree is such a field doesn't make you any better at working in that field. I can think of so many people who I know went to college just because it was what society dictated to them, wasted a few thousand bucks to get a history degree and then wound up working in an office at some bank or fixing boilers something they could have done without wasting time in college. Its a waste of peoples time and money. Blue collar work is seen as something people in western society should despise but its what western society is built on and deserves respect.

yes I agree with both parts of what you said.. about the parties, definitely its filled with hypocrisy and demonstration of human weaknesses. When I used to go a lot to psy festivals, one thing that I always noticed so much was the toilets, and the workers who are there cleaning the shit from everybody. Its like this image of a beautiful ship going along the sea while on the bottom part the dirty slaves are making all the actual work.

I always tried to show them that I noticed them (the workers), smiling or saying hello or thank you or something.... Or also many times when these parties are in nature, and people emptily glorify the nature but throw trash or their cigarrete butts on the floor, and so on.

But its not everybody, of course.. I try to do my part, and I know some people also.. so thats why I think once again that there's 'bad' people (or bad behaviors) in all groups, whether its the straighties, drop outs, party goers, university students, whatever.

Yes that used to drive me nuts about the mess people make. Its so easy to just throw your beer can into the container thats a 5 second walk from where you are standing. Anyway I don't mean to bash on these scenes but there is certainly a dark side to them.

These are the standards that the recording industry has set, making the production of music into something that requires a well-trained team of technicians and engineers. Not that it doesn't have its value; for example, this is integral for adequately recording classical music. The problem is that when people get accustomed to such methods for pop music (not speaking of the genre, but the whole array music outside of, say, jazz and classical), they tend to feel locked out of the whole art-form by social and material limitations. This isn't necessary, and the plethora of artist I've noticed popping up out of the decline of the industry illustrates this wonderfully.

The music I've been listening to lately has obvious technical constraints in their recording methods, yet the fact that they release them indicates their willingness to adapt to those constraints and use the distortion as a necessary desirable aspect of their work. Their work has inspired me greatly and has eased all of the anxieties preventing me from expressing myself musically. Bob Dylan made everyone feel like they could pick up a guitar and hit the road, which they could and still can, but they needed him to help them realize that. Punk made everyone realize that they could start a band and play rock and roll and relate to their peers on a level that was never before possible in pop music. When Daniel Johnston released his first album, he made and recorded every tape he distributed from scratch, by himself. The new bands have taken all of this to the next level.

When I come up with a new song, I can immediately record it satisfactorily because of the minimalistic nature of my recording setup and the way that I've adapted to it. If some comes over wanting to record, we can immediately get right to it, getting our levels in an amount of minutes. Certainly, my music isn't on the level of obtaining a large listener base yet, but if my influences are of any indication, it's on it's way.

I say this is the era to liberate music from industry.

SWIM has a nice fat student loan to pay off...
he dropped out of college at the end of his junior year and became initiated as a shaman with ayahausca and sanpedro among other medicines... he did healing for 3 years straight, nearly living on the streets and eating from the food bank... oh swim worked... but he gave everything away to help others... so there was little left but tobacco and prayer at the end of the day... maybe a beer.
Swims peirs still call him the top ramen shaman because of that... which is kinda an honor in a way... they presented him with a rattle made out of a tums bottle on a cedar stick with top ramen in it... freinds like that eh... hehehheh...
when swims married home owning ceremonial freind called him the street shaman one nigth in ceremony and swims heart seized up... swim knew that it was time to try finding a way to work a tad bit harder at doing the good work in ways that helped him thrive... the more swim had the more swim could give he thought...

So... swim stayed out of school and started working with developmentally disabled sex offenders... terrible job... but some one has to protect people from these guys... swim still did some ceremonies but focused on writing and teaching more on the side...
then swim after 3 years worked in a involuntary psyche ward... having to wrestle people into restraints and try hsi best to actually help people when no one was looking... swim did not beleive inthe system but was trying his best to help people...
in the mean while swim was no longer doing many ceremonies... swim was getting wounded at work... swim was hurt a lot by trying to help people in this way... but swim was still in dept with student loans...
SWIM decided to finnish college and study ways of helping the world so that society didnt possibly need psyce wards any more...
swim studied permaculture and natural building, local food systems and continued to teach people and do ceremonies on the side... while still working 40hours a week in a psyceh ward... swim was a hurting unit...
swim graduated from college after workign with some of the most amazing people in the feild of alternative living... and went and lived on an island building straw bale houses for lower income families on a fully sustianable land trust...
that was good... but it put swim in the hole... money wise...
swim moved back to his town and got a job at the psyche ward again this time only on call...
the recession had hit hard... and swim was fucked...
swim held out and held the intention to do good work int he world...
swim found a new job working for one of the most amazing people in the world... orld famous for helping the planet... SWIM has for the first time felt he has a job that is really helping the world and swim... the balance is there FINALLY!!!
there is nothing to drop out for now for swim... swim did a healing ceremony the other night just as powerful as when he was the the street shaman and hes living well and feeling heal their and healing the truamas of working in a psyche ward for 4 years...


here is the thing COMMIT your life to humble service... pay your dues, have some faith.. say your prayers give your self as an offering to benifit the whole and have some fucking grace and dignity in the process... you will be put exactly where you are needed in life to help and life will help you... the more you dedicate yourself to selfless service the more life will give to you to help... you live a life of payer and offering... and you will be blessed in ways that include hardships AND joy...

swim does nto see it now... but swim knows that swim will get that peice of property... and that ceremonial hut made of cob and straw bales for his ceremonies withthe medicine... and swim will be able to live off grid and help the world by working his unholy living ass off...
while making a lower impact as well... he knows this.. because hes a sevent of the whole and he holds the intention of all that is in his heart.

"Into the Wild"
A facinating true story. But extreme... I wasn't thinking of going sole-hunter-gatherer!
A good reminder of the hazards of misidentification... which is what ended his adventure.
Of course other people do things like this and don't end up dead. And he went far further than necessary.

Didn't read the book but saw the movie. I really hated the ending, not so much the dying, but how he seemed to puss out and find god and essentially discount his entire amazing life.

Really? You mean because of when he spoke about god on the mountaintop with the old man? I assumed from that that he was a transcendentalist, believing that everything was 'god' like some of use here do. And when he died with a smile on his face, I assumed that was the relief of someone in intense pain embracing death. I imagine that the note on the floor was really there in real life because it's meant to be pretty close to the truth. But yeah, it did go a bit flat once he was in the wilderness.
I just can't believe he didn't do the tests that you're meant to do to check a plant is edible (I'll type them up one day, out of my SAS survival book!).
Sad, because from his photo he looked like a real dude. And yeah he did some cool stuff, I liked the beach scene with the rubbertramps, and Slab City. Although he really should've given that 16 year old chick what she wanted!
That old guy with the painted mud mountain is for real, I've seen him on a programme about outsider art before.

I cried Nice story though.