for the record..vaporized harmine is active at around 1mg enough to synergise with vaporized tryptamines. Not hard to imagine more potent beta carbolines either, present in many of these plants.

But we are not doing a taste test on pepsi vs coke, we're testing the psychoactive effects of coke vs pepsi. To find out, we need to hide the labels and any other external characteristics so that we know we are testing what we have set out to, which is whether people can really tell the psychoactive (and not taste) differences between sample A and sample B.

You admited yourself the extent in which self-suggestion can play a part in our lives and yet you think isn't what is happening in the mentioned case of jungle vs DMT.... Maybe you're right, but before it is properly tested, we cannot know for sure.

I am not making any claims, I am desiring propper evidence that backs either side of the story, out of interest on this particular question.

Maybe people don't care to know if they can really tell the differences or if it's placebo, they are content with their own subjective feelings. Which is fine by me, not everybody has to investigate whether jungle differences are placebo or not, or whether DMT is soluble in this or that solvent, or so on. But I do want to know.. We may have indications that DMT might be soluble on one solvent or another, or we might have indications that a certain plant or mix of substances might be different in their perceived effects, but in this second case, the very nature of the supposed indications (the reported subjective effects of people bioassaying non-blind) prevents us from answering the question.

Notice that we are consuming in a given breakthrough dose, for example, 30mg DMT. The max that was found of these other substances in mine and burnt's analysis was 3% IIRC, which means in a dose, you'd be consuming at most 0.9mg of, for example, 2MTHBC. So when people say that differences of jungle can be told from DMT, essentially what one is claiming is that 900 micrograms of this particular beta carboline or some other, can reliably modulate the DMT trip to a certain patterned color or 'vibe' to the experience. I'd say that would be pretty amazing if it was statistically shown so, and would probably result in a lot of very interesting pharmacological questions and avenues of research. I'd love it if we could show with appropriate tests either way, to show how far people can be mislead by self-suggestion, or to possibly open up a whole new novel side of pharmacology research.

And last, another interesting possibility that occurred to me: Maybe with testing we find out that people CAN discriminate and notice a difference between samples A and B (whether that's jungle/dmt or chali/mimosa or whatever) but maybe they can't tell WHAT is the difference. Maybe same sample results in more bad trips for some people, and more good trips for other people, or this or that kind of trip without any general agreement. It could be that due to widely-published internet reports claiming one specific type of effect (for example that chaliponga or jungle is more 'wild' ), most people end up having this kind of trip instead of another, though when taking blind they might have a completely different kind of experience.

1) Not to beat a dead horse Endless, but YOU are "not doing a taste test." I on the other hand was. I have said this enough times that it makes no sense to go on about it. My only claim was that I can tell them apart blind. I only suggested that it is my opinion that the effects are also distinguishable, but I made it clear this is inconclusive.

2) I didn't admit that self-suggestion can play a part in our lives... I started off by saying it is the very foundation of what it means to be human. Not only is it likely involved in your narrow interest here on this thread... but in every aspect of human perception... including your clinical analysis. Which I also have said a number of times now.

Your belief that your tests can reveal the truth of this matter is also due to the suggestions of your teachers and scientific minded colleagues. In actuality, there is no evidence that we live in a material world governed by such physical laws. It is a learned paradigm that seems to be true, but this is not any kind of proof.

I suppose when I say something clear as day 3 times and someone still doesn't want to acknowledge what I am saying, than I am a fool to think a 4th time will help. But I am that fool... so who knows. In AA and NA they say it is the definition of craziness to repeat the same actions again and again and continue to hope for a different result. I think they are wrong, but it is a mark of true stubbornness or unadulterated idealism... two qualities I have in spades, but which are always outweighed by my fierce pragmatism.

Thus, as a pragmatist, my feeling is that what works is more valuable than the illusion of knowledge. If I can reliably give myself a different experience of hyperspace, than everything else is just frosting. Thinking that we can make hard and fast rules that apply to all people, in all situations, for all time is folly AFAICT. There is no diet that works the same for all people. There is no uniformity in our reactions to various drugs either. I know a number of people who get stimulated from valium and sedated from cocaine.

I appreciate your scientific zeal, but that is not my focus. It is yours. As I have said many times, I am more interested in what we can do with entheogens than in their composition. Knowing how to make drugs or what their exact constituents are is not mysterious or difficult. It is formulaic and can be done by anyone with the equipment, a modicum of intelligence, and the interest. The activities I engage in while in hyperspace, on the other hand, are not so easily learned or put into practice. They, like lucid dreaming or astral projection... are currently beyond our scientific ability to explain or reproduce reliably in a lab. They are things that take years of practice to do well, and there is no guarantee that even very intelligent people will achieve them.

I began on this thread by agreeing with 90% of what you said, and only adding that I have done dozens of blind taste tastes, and that it was clear that most people can tell Jungle apart. I said from the beginning that this is because they taste and smell different. In response, you made the claim that people can't even tell wines apart, which is laughable to anyone who drinks wine. (there are wines that have such different consistencies and flavors that they are obvious even to noobs)

You also made the claim that because you and burnt could only identify a small amount of beta-carboline in your Jungle Spice samples, that this was not enough to account for the different experiences people report. This is not something that you can say with any certainty. Small amounts of certain compounds can certainly have pronounced effects, and the effects we are talking about are not really very extreme. A mere shift in the aesthetics. In fact, given how singular DMT is, this difference amounts to maybe a mere 5% of the experience max.

I have reiterated that:

a) Your Jungle may not be the same as mine, and is likely nowhere near as oily.

b) That the differences might involve supposedly inactive ingredients, and thus not be obvious to your methods of testing.

c) That my re-x's of my Jungle Spice leave a large amount of oily deep purple red stuff that, while perhaps not devoid of DMT, is certainly not primarily composed of it... and that this "Jim Jam" stuff is psychoactive for me on its own. It doesn't have anything like a DMT high either.

d) That oils account for a larger portion of my Jungle Spice than you are allowing for. Your suggestion that Jungle Spice is only 97% NN DMT and 3% this unknown beta-carboline is at the very least, premature... and in the case of my Jungle Spice, completely inaccurate. Jim Jam accounts for over 30% of my Jungle Spice by weight.

At any rate, I will stop repeating myself. I know what you are trying to say, and I think you know what I am saying... If not, then you are not likely to grok it from further repetition.

Final Point: You may envision yourself as the objective neutral party in a debate between two sides, but that is not how you come off in this thread, or in many others either. Furthermore, there is no real polarized debate here. Merely opinions and speculations. As someone who consistently trumpets the scientific paradigm, you are not the least bit neutral in these discussions, but rather seem inclined to set up a debate on your terms with your worldview as the sole arbiter. I have no problem with this, but you don't seem neutral to me.

I wish you all the best in your clinical aspirations.

Peace & Blessings
HF

I have absolutely no problem if you don't want to know the exact constituents of a plant extract and what is the pharmacology of these compounds, I did mention that it is my own personal interest, and related to the title of this very thread. Non-blind experiments and personal experiences of lucid dreaming or exploration of the realms these substances can take us to, are perfectly fine and something I like to engage in myself, but this is not what this thread is about, at least not what I intended it to be. I thought it was pretty clear from the start that what interested me is the effects of self-suggestion on subjective experience when dealing with these compounds, forgive me if it wasnt.

You mention numbers on what your jungle spice contains or doesn't, but did you do any /analysis to back it up, or is it an estimated number, and if so, based on what reference to compare ?

Instead just guessing whether our jungle spices are the same or not, maybe it would be more productive if we could talk about how our jungles are made and then speculate on possible differences in constituents depending on method. It's been a while but when I made the tests linked in my signature, what I did was pull basified mimosa from an a/b with xylene and evap, resulting in a red wet waxy substance and also test to do 2 warm naphtha pulls on the jungle spice to supposedly eliminate the DMT from it. What did you do? Maybe we can get a sample using your method and test it out.

So I am fascinated by learning how our mind works, also because it helps me learning about my own possible delusions and hence break a little more free from the prison of not being in a 'Fully Aware' state. This thread is a part of that. I'm also fascinated by pharmacology of these plant compounds, specially when dealing with these relevant and more unknown plant compounds

So far we have 3 substances in minor but significant amounts, which are 3 beta carbolines. 2 are identified, MTHBC and 2MTHBC. Another one, 1,2-DMTHBC is a probable match, speculated from visual matching of mass spectra but we did not have that standard. Not much info at all is known about these compounds, whatever we find out could be posted here. Other compounds were detected in trace amounts when sample was concentrated in an alternative method (salting solvent with acidic water after retrieving DMT from the FASA salting), including a couple of phenetylamines of unknown (AFAIK) activity. These compounds were really-trace quantities, that even in the standard concentrated jungle spice (from xylene evap + 2 naphtha pulls to supposedly remove dmt) they were below the limit of detection for the mass spec. But I'd guess if there is a significant psychoactive difference between, say, jungle and dmt, then the first place to look would be those beta carbolines.

We can blind test without much difficulty the potential psychoactive differences between jungle spice and dmt, or between certain plants. Then if we find out there are no differences blind, we learn about the extent of self-suggestion. If we find out that people can tell appart the differences with some statistical regularity and patterns, we would have a lot of hints about these compounds and their pharmacology. Maybe there would be a specific interest in researching how to separate and concentrate these compounds and research in specific doses. This could also be a very interesting outcome to the blind tests. One way or another I say it is a win-win situation

One detail about a comment you made, the analytical instrument we used could detect non-active compounds, including your theoretical saponins, tannins and oils.

Regarding wine tasting, I never made any general claims of what people can or can't, please re-read my words. I said (correctly) that there are several publications that show people can't taste difference in wines, at least those wines and those test subjects, even when in some cases it was composed of supposed experts/pros. If you want to criticise those specific publications referenced, their methods or what not, feel free.... Informed criticism is always something one learns from. I was merely linking an article I had come across recently as a coincidence to the example you used about wines. It was just trivia or associative thinking/linking, not exactly related to this thread's discussion because in that case it's only about tasting, not about psychoactivity.

And lastly, feel free to point out specific quotes of mine that display an unreasonable or unconstructive bias to any side of the discussion, I'm certainly willing to review my thoughts/words and improve... I'm not in the Nexus to prove myself right, but rather to (let me be cheesy for a moment) learn, share and expand

I am interested... just only mildly so, and not enough to take time away from things I am very interested in. I thought I made that clear.

If you read my first post here, you will see that I agreed about suggestibility and merely mentioned that I had done taste tests and that it was easy to distinguish because of taste and smell.

The numbers I mentioned were easy to come by.

1) Make Jungle Spice & weigh it (see below for more info on how)
2) Perform a Re-x on the Jungle Spice
3) Weigh the leftovers from the Re-x

I have made Jungle a number of ways with a number of NPS including Xylene, Toulene and Naptha. The re-x is usually with Heptane, but I have used Naptha for that as well.

You didn't mention heat, which is a big factor in pulling a lot of the extra stuff. To get the really oily stuff, it usually involves heating both the Basified Solution and the NPS. I have often let the combo sit for days and then reheated the stuff in a warm water bath before pulling, and pulling while warm.

The leftovers from the Re-x I call Jim Jam. Jungle Spice is the full spectrum stuff with the DMT still in it. From your description, I would say you were analyzing the Jim Jam and not the Jungle Spice.

Your "waxy" stuff would not be identical to mine. And if your equip can test for oils I am sure you would find them in mine. It makes no sense for us to get bogged down in the differences between our stuff, as we will never have the same source materials and every little thing makes a difference IME. How finely powdered, what PH you basify, the amount and technique of agitation used etc. etc.

Anyway, now you are saying you have found 3 beta carbolines & trace phenethylamines. It seems clear that even your Jungle Spice is not identical to White Spice.

You may find the minutiae of this stuff fascinating, and that is fine... I find it only mildly curious. When you wind up figuring this stuff out further or learning about the action of the various extra ingredients you isolate, I will certainly continue to follow your results. But I have the information I need already.

Also, there are more sure fire ways of escaping from your prison of not being "Fully Aware" than this little side project of yours. The tried and true techniques of advanced meditation are more likely to bear fruit IMHO. Even if you solve this puzzle, it will not likely result in your liberation from your mind.

Anyway, good luck meu amigo. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Note taken, will try pulls with heat next time, compare results and post once I do. I'll link you to it.

I think there are different ways for different people to get closer to Awareness. For me, studying the human mind by the several different methods (subjective psychedelic experience, self-observation, existencial/spiritual practices, scientific studies, case reports, pharmacology, analysis of phenomenon such as self-suggestion and optical illusions, etc) is one of the ways, and this thread is a reflection of that. Also it's not like this thread is the only or main endeavor in my self-development, just one of the many lines of investigation

I always pull with really hot sunflower oil, and do at least 6 pulls. I did the same with limo. I always seem to get much larger yields than what some others talk about..and its always a blood red goo. I have gotten in excess of 2% of this stuff before, and it does not seem to be just innert stuff. 25mg of it would blow me away. Note that this is everything, full spectrum. Not just the jungle stuff isolated from the cleaner white DMT stuff.

The only other really source I have worked with that felt like it was very clean(meaning very pure crystalline experience that I associate with "DMT" is acacia phlebophylla. I only worked with it a few times as I was gifted some phyllodes and will likely never have access to it again..but it was is very very similar to mimosa spice for me. Where mimosa and phlebophylla are are like twins in my experience, mimosa and chaliponga feel to be worlds apart.

However, there is still a minor different between the phlebophylla and the mimosa in reguards to my own experiences. It is hard to really say what that difference is..but the first time I vaped the phlebophylla extract I felt it came on faster than I was used to, and was almost transparent at first. It has been that way for me the 5 or so times I smoked it. I get the exact same field of light fractal sort of mandala as I am exhaling forming but it feels more transparent for some reason than mimosa. Both are reported to be very clean and pure DMT sources. I think phlebophylla apparently contains only DMT? The different is minor and could be subjective. I don't think many people would even notice any difference at all..but with chaliponga extracted DMT I don't know how anyone could not realize it is different. The mental space between mimosa and phlebophylla was pretty much the same..verry euphoric and energetic and crystalline.

I know I have spoken with both dreamer and Dan about this, and others I cant remember who have extracted and vaped the chaliponga alkaloids..and they all said it was a dark and more pushy or menacing experience..the visuals are darker and dimmer or for some almost not even present..many have all agreed with me that the onset is different..it lasts for longer, which is another thing the ayahuasca community all says about it. It is common knowledge among experienced ayahuasca drinkers that chaliponga is a much longer lasting admixture than psychotria and mimosa. it is considered to be a longer lasting, more advanced admixture plant even to some indigenous peoples who are familiar with both.

The problem with that is that it might be hard to know what plant your leaves really come from when you order "chaliponga". All the chaliponga I am familiar with came from maya(both numbers) and from another local vendor. They all gave the same kind of experience.