I wonder what is it that makes people so adverse to the suggestion that they might be influenced by their own expectations, that certain effects might be self-suggestion/placebo ?

Often people will make all sorts of claims without ever questioning themselves on alternate explanations for what they experience. For example when people claim that a 'certain color of spice = bad trip', or that DMT from a certain plant is different than DMT from another plant, or when they say that older plants have more wisdom and result in better trips, etc... I don't go ahead and tell them that the effects are for sure self-suggestion, because I don't know that for sure, but I just suggest the possibility and ask if they considered it, and if they might be interested in blind testing.

But it's as if im offending them, putting their own status in danger. I am not, I have no vested interest in one side or another, I'm just for truth and minimizing human error when making claims that are in the realm of what can be test scientifically. Endless researches show how us humans can be mistaken in our perceptions, so why deny that it can happen with psychedelic experiences? It's nothing against you personally, you can still be a great knowledgeable experienced psychonaut and yet accept that self-suggestion is a real phenomenon that might happen to you too.

Here's another example, this poster says others claim pipes with condensed DMT results in bad trip. It reminds me of Skinner's 'supersticious pigeons' , which connect two temporal related events even when they have no cause and effect relationship. Or to put it in the example above, I might smoke from the pipe with condensed DMT once, have a bad trip for totally unrelated reasons, and yet I will start thinking that DMT crystallized in pipe = bad trip. Maybe self-suggestion adds up and I keep having bad trips from that pipe because I expect it so. But of course, I might as well have believed that smoking on wednesdays is what creates the bad trip, or my blue shirt, or whatever else. Or maybe even I smoke again from that pipe and don't have a bad trip but instead of extinguishing the previous supersticion, I just create a new one (for example 'it's the green shirt that is protecting me'.

It might be that all of these supposed differences people say they can tell appart by effects (color of DMT, plant source, pipe with condensation or not, etc) are all self-suggestion. It might be some of them can be told appart and others are self-suggestion, or it might be people could really tell of them appart. Personally I'd guess it's either the first or second option. Now let me make this clear: No matter how much you are sure you know, you don't know until you tested it blind. The only person who took the work of testing blind, Ice House, could NOT tell appart the effects from red, white and yellow DMT extracted from mimosa.

So what about you, what do you think?

(one last note, when I mention that maybe people can't tell appart DMT from different sources, I am considering that the DMT has been purified and does not contain a significant amount of other alkaloids)

I am a great believer in being open to suggestability on psychedelics. I guess that is why set and setting are so important. Perhaps you see something that is disturbing. You decide that it is malicious and your mind runs with it. Maybe the break down of linear time (at least in my experience) can add to these feelings whereby you have a thought and your hallucination reacts to this thought before you have even consciously realised that you have had that particular thought, and so the journey builds in a particular way. I don"t know whether that makes any sense to anyone.
If you are religious or spiritual maybe you will have a spiritual journey. Or a scientific type who is into all the quantum/string theory stuff will maybe have a relationship with the minutae of existence, and so on. I do not think that being open to suggestability means that the experience is any less relevant on a personal level.

I have had different kinds of experiences on different coloured spice but always put it down to different alkaloids in the finshed extractions.

Also the experiment at 51 minute mark in the documantary i have linked below is food for thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We8tXGRoYWU

people have tried to claim that it is self suggestion that chaliponga is way different from mimosa..but I know that that is bs. Nearly every person I have spoken with who has extracted the 2 and vaped them all swear there is a huge difference to the point where they are like 2 different tryptamines.

I did also kind of test it blind once..not really blind but I licked some crystals to see how much of a burn there was..I was not expecting it to be enough to do anything, esp not without harmalas. But 10 mins later I was up the street at the store and I started to come up and it was the same weird dark mental effect that I get when I vape the stuff. I am pretty confident that I could tell that a full spectrum chaliponga extract is not mimosa in a blind experiment.

I have also tested other plants like acacia phlebophylla and it was pretty much the same experience for me as mimosa hostilis..so I think I can judge this stuff okay and after a number of experiments I can get a picture of the nature of the experience.

So, yeah I am adverse in situations like that. It all depends on the situation.

There is a point where you know, and where you don't really know but are just kind of guessing.

I also had a dark freaky trip the night my gradfather died(without knowing he died). I don't claim that is why my trip was like that though. In that case I really don't know but can only speculate.

It can go both ways. I could just as easily ask people why they are so attached to the idea that these things are all just self suggestion?

I also kind of agree with nen though, that DMT from different plants can still retain some of the spirit of that plant. Something like entanglement and non-locality might explain these things better sometime in the future.

It is possible that the red goo or oily DMT extracts are better to smoke than the crystal because the oils might protect the tryptamines from the high heat and allow more of them to vape instead of burn, resulting in differing effects.

Good post endless...I really enjoy the reasonable middle ground you've outlined, which is an approach i don't think people take often enough. A lot of times it seems the people polarize into opposite sides of this. Having studied this sort of thing a lot (along with humanity's capacity for confabulation/delusion etc) I think people are more often than not unaware of the extent to which their minds can mislead themselves.

"There is a point where you know, and where you don't really know but are just kind of guessing."

Its almost never that simple, and i even think its misleading to think that there is just a point "where you know" for sure...because even if there is, it won't do you any good to take that as a given. I've had gut feelings/intuitions about many things that turned out to be right, but i've also had strong convictions about other things that turned out to not be what i thought. No matter how much you think you "know" there is always the possibility that you don't know

There was a point where i 'knew' for sure that what i had wasn't good lsd, that it was probably something else, and that this was the reason why i was having rough trips with it. Everyone else who had taken it agreed that it was probably some weird RC. But then, after testing it, turns out it was lsd. My trips with it after that were very positive and in some ways completely different in nature. But on the flip side, having said that, there is still the possibility that other things were in with the lsd (or whatever) and that the only reason i had a good trip afterward testing the blotter was due to self-suggestion on account of the fact that i now believed it was good lsd

I'm not in the 'its all self suggestion' or 'its not self suggestion' camp because like you said it depends on the situation and the overall context in general. I can understand why it can be offensive to people when others suggest the possibility that X has to do with self-suggestion, and i've been offended as well remarks like that about some of my experiences, when they're made very often and in a certain way. There just needs to be a mutual and respectful understanding from both parties that neither is trying to bash or dismiss the other and both are simply after truth

It is the other end of the spectrum, but either way there is no proof if it is placebo or real, until the actual test is done.

Im sure in some instances it would be easier to tell than others.... like if you had white spice from mimosa and white spice from acacia.. who knows it would probably be pretty hard to tell.

But like jamie said if it is a full spectrum exteract vs. a pure one, im absolutely confident you could tell the difference right away

Nah, not really, at least not for me - I also cannot tell the difference between chaliponga extract and mimosa extract... which of course makes me think that claims to the contrary are self-suggestions OR that I am horribly insensitive to subtle differences.

Truth to be told however, only a blind test can settle the argument about put such assertions - and who knows self suggestion may explain some but not all the perceived differences.

well if nothing else, the consistancy of the smoke would be an indicator.

Have you been reading these posts about acacia confusa extract and people having experiences that come on slowly and lasting 45 min or more? In a case like that you could absolutely tell, but i do suppose your right, anything short of doing an actual test is pure speculation!

Suggestibility is a foundation of what it means to be human. Our entire field of perception is merely a learned paradigm that we developed as children in response to following the lead of our parents and the people around us.

If you have ever witnessed hypnosis (the real stuff) you will have some idea as to how suggestible the human mind is. I have seen people who were told under hypnosis that an ice cube was a hot coal and then received physical burns from touching the cube to their skin.

It would seem that reality is often what we believe it to be.



The problem with this assumption endly, is that jungle spice is not purified and should contain things other than pure N,N DMT in it... if only odd oils, saponins and the like.

In the end, we kind of have to go with what our senses and minds tell us. Even knowing that they are woefully inadequate to the task, and that our reality is an illusion... what choice do we have? We hone our senses and sharpen our minds. We perceive finer and more subtle gradations of what seemed homogeneous. The whole "Eskimos have 200 words for snow" thing.

In my experience, with many blind tests... Red gooey jungle spice is easily identifiable from clean white spice. Not just in my opinion, but in most of the people who have done the test. My jungle spice and jim jam blends are not pure N,N DMT. This is obvious not only in the color and texture... the aroma and fragrance in the air... but also in the subjective quality and aesthetics of the trip.

I may be wrong... but this is the result of many dozens of controlled experiments with other people packing the pipe and smoking it in a pitch black tripping room... with the same song playing. (important, as this has as much of an effect on the trip as the kind of spice IMHO)

Anyway, just my 2c.

"Nah, not really, at least not for me - I also cannot tell the difference between chaliponga extract and mimosa extract"

Infund you are the only person I know of that has made this claim. If you look at the ayahuasca forums also there is person after person who will all talk about the vast difference between mimosa/chacruna and chaliponga. Are you sure that the leaves you received were actually chaliponga and not some potent psychotria, like Hawaiian?

Or did you do some kind of extraction with the chaliponga that is not full spectrum?

Virtually every other person I have evern spoken to here on in real life swears that chaliponga is vastly different. I know that it is, and I know that it is no self suggestion..there is no way I could self suggest myself into an experience that different over and over again. I have experimented with chaliponga extracts at least 20 times, not including brews. It is not a subtle difference. It is like 2 different experiences. Even the onset and length is different.

Jamie, I think amorfati showed DMT can be absorbed by the oral mucosa, though I'm not sure how efficient that is.

Do you have any of this chaliponga that you claim is so different than mimosa?

I think that the whole point, as UC rightly said, is that we may think that we know something for sure, and yet we might be wrong. That's the point of blind testing.

HF, would you mind sharing a bit how did you set up this double blind test? Regarding jungle DMT being very different in it's content, in my tests the percentage of different compounds in it was very small compared to other yellow/white naphtha crystals. I'd still like more people to test it double blind (or at least blind) and let us know if they perceive the difference.

Thanks for the responses everybody, keep them coming

"Jamie, I think amorfati showed DMT can be absorbed by the oral mucosa, though I'm not sure how efficient that is."

With harmalas. I have not been able to get DMT to work sublingualy without harmalas.

Ive combined chaliponga with rue as well as mimosa with rue, and the difference IMO isnt subjective, the effects of the chaliponga last alot longer, and the experience like jamie says feels quite a bit different.

so you have done blind tests hyperspace fool? One way to do a good blind test IMO would be to get jungle spice or acacia spice, or chaliponga extract and lay it onto leaves, as well as a batch of freebase dmt laid on leaves and have someone weigh and load the dose for you and you wouldnt know which you were recieving. i think the results would be interesting but definetly think people could tell the difference.

You are talking about alkaloids... and specifically ones we know (assume) to be active. The thing about Jungle Spice being different is probably not due to extra tryptamines or some other compounds known to potentiate them, like the harmalas. Jungle Spice is not any stronger than normal spice... but the oils and other things (saponins & tannins come to mind) that make it different from pure spice certainly have aesthetic and aromatic effects... and many people find that the high is different.

It is not wildly different IMO. It is still a DMT flash, but the spectrum of the hallucinations are shifted to warmer colors. Like a rose/sepia filter on a camera lens perhaps. Also, the areas of Hyperspace that are reached are also shifted a bit.

Is this suggestion? Who knows for sure. I already said that everything in our perception is affected by suggestion. Nonetheless, nearly every extractor that I know wouldn't bother to make pure crystals if they didn't have subjectively different effects. Nor would people go out of their way to make Jungle. We would all be smoking yellow goo changa, as that is easiest to make.

Some people can't tell single malt scotch from blended bourbon... but that doesn't mean there is no difference. It means they don't have the sensitive palette to notice the obvious differences that are there for a connoisseur. People pay considerably more money for single malt for a reason. There is also a reason why people prefer aged whisky. I can actually taste the kind of barrel it was aged in... and often which region of Scotland it is from. My wine connoisseur buddies can do the same with French wines.

Is it really so hard to imagine that the smell and taste of spice full of aromatic oils would be discernible to a knowledgeable palette? I think being critical is good, but there is a point where people who don't have the sensitivity to notice these things and come down on those who do with skepticism, become rather boorish. It is like someone saying that there is no difference between a Bordeaux and Chianti. Even I can tell those wines apart in a blind test. Jungle and Crystal are more like red wine and white wine... obviously different to nearly all who try them.

On one level, wine is wine and whisky is whisky... the alcohol effects are the same. But only a fool would say you get the same drunk from Tequila as you get from Vodka. The active ingredient is still ethanol, but come on. There are obviously other factors at work. If it was just a simple matter of the amount of ethanol consumed, then people would just take thimbles of Everclear. The ethanol is affected by the other ingredients in the plant materials. Malt and hopps in beer... thujone in Absinthe. This is not really debatable.

So, to the point... I know my Jungle Spice is not the same as pure spice, because when I re-x it, there is a red goo leftover. This stuff, I call Jim Jam, and it is active on its own... with no spice in it at all. (or a very tiny amount anyway) It is not a DMT flash, but it is psychoactive and psychedelic for me... especially if smoked when on harmalas. It also has a very red-purple spectrum to its visuals, which if you laid over the clear basic spectrum neon and bluish background Hyperspace of pure crystals... basically equals the effects I get from Jungle.

I suggest you all do your own tests, but I have done many dozens already over many years and with many people. My mind is basically made up. Suggestion or no suggestion, I can tell them apart. There are obvious aromatic differences that overlay the indole smell. You would have to have a stuffed nose not to notice.

Perhaps people don't make Jungle as "full-spectrum" as I do. I have had people come to me with some reddish spice and call it Jungle. For me that is not the real stuff. That is basically yellow spice with some traces of Jungle. My Jungle Spice is probably at least 1/3rd Jim Jam. It won't crystalize, and is only somewhat less gooey than the Jim Jam that is leftover if you re-x it. I have done this a number of times. Furthermore, if you take the Jim Jam and melt it over your white spice, you get the qualitative effects of Jungle. This is not rocket science, friends.

No one is saying that Jungle has a vastly different alkaloid profile. But, we all know that there are plenty of other things in plants that contribute to their flavor, smell, taste and physiological effects. It could be mimosa hostilis essential oils for all we know.

I, for one, am interested in what the components of the Jim Jam are... but I can not devote the time for this mild curiosity. If those of you with easy access to lab equipment and nothing better to do can inform us as to what kinds of oils, tannins, saponins, or whatnot are in this stuff I will be obliged.

But... everything doesn't have to be some kind of lab-oriented experimental clinical trial, IMHO. Have a friend pack bowls of deep red jungle goo and pure white spice for you without letting you know which is which. Put on a mindfold, or just close your eyes tightly as someone lights it for you. Most of you will find that the taste alone is a dead giveaway... but a somewhat smaller percentage of you will also find that you are reliably taken into a different high. For me it is like a sparkling Champagne vs. a tongue coating red wine like the Châteauneuf-du-Pape my Parisian buddy brought over a couple weeks ago. (A fine wine grown in the vineyard of the Avignon Pope... back when there were briefly 2 Popes in Europe)

You can also do a high heat extraction with full-spectrum NPS and then re-x the results... and then bioassay the leftovers of the re-x. It is subtle and not a DMT flash... but it is noticeable and quite pleasant. I like to smoke jim jam and amanita when i am on MXE.

my response may not be entirely relevant (at least in regards of the different subjective effects in DMT), and if so i apologize:
but i am of the opinion that placebo/nocebo is the epitome of majick.
i take a medicine, which physically holds no value (Say a microdose of sucrose), but my intent (i intend for the medicine to work) physically manifests itself (the sugar pills heal!).

and as such i am not adverse to the possibility of anything being placebo, because in the end it is the result that matters, not whether it was achieved by physical or intentional means.

As for Chaliponga, I have only had the pleasure of using it alone in a brew a few times, and never extracted from it. I have had a number of brews where it was an admixture plant, but I can't say for sure how different it actually is or is not.

Back when I first encountered it, all of the psychonauts I knew were fairly certain it had other alkaloids in it. There was a lot of talk about Chali having 5-Meo or Bufo. I don't know anyone who tested this, though, and it seems that this may have been one of the many psychonaut urban legends. Again, I have no idea.

I can say that the trips I had with Chali were somewhat different. But then, all of my many huasca variations and analogues seem different... in fact, the same exact source materials taken on different days can seem different. When dealing with MAOIs there are so many factors to isolate that, unless one really fasts for a few days beforehand, it is very hard to say what might be causing various subtle effects. As someone fond of supplements and often using things like Melatonin, 5-HTP, L-Tryptophan, Galantamine, Calea, Silene Capensis, various nootropics and a host of other vitamins, minerals, probiotics, enzymes and cold pressed oils... many of which have pronounced effects when mixed with my RIMAs of choice... it is too tangled a web to say anything for certain without repeating the same exact brews, sets & settings etc. while changing only one of the factors... and doing this a number of times with as many people as possible... who are also experienced enough to be able to notice subtle differences... and are able to remember significant amounts of their trips (important, and more rare than you may imagine).

And even then, you can never really step in the same river twice. This is especially true with entheogens. Even back in the 70's I already realized that taking the exact same LSD from the same sheet on different days had different effects. This is because the most important part of the equation (the mind) is never quite the same. A much higher facility with meditation has made this much less dramatic for me, as I always meditate with my psychs... and my mind is more reliably calm and expansive due to decades of daily meditation. Still, even if the waves of consciousness are not so dramatic as when I was a hormone filled teen, my awareness and perceptivity have increased at least as much, and thus even very subtle changes in consciousness are glaring to me now.

I should also mention that it is possible that people sometimes get other leaves and think they have chali. Most people can't tell coffee leaves from chacruna without being told what to look for (little nodes on the underside).

So, I will leave the Chaliponga discussion to those who have more to say on it. I will just stand by my Jungle vs. Crystal "experiments" and reaffirm that they are noticeably different to the senses. This shouldn't be any kind of surprise as there are obviously some "extra" constituents in Jungle that make it so red... it is not like DMT rusts.

The last thing I will add here (I know my posts are long and I have already said a lot) is this: I am not the least bit adverse to the idea of placebo effects and suggestion (self or otherwise). Unfortunately, I see these things as being omnipresent and not restricted to subjects like Jungle v. Crystal and Chali v. Chacruna. I am convinced that every last aspect of our personal, individual, and shared illusory realities is affected by these things. Our realities are a hodge podge of habits and prejudices... most of them learned from others... who in turn inherited them. Those of us able to let go of learned paradigms can be creative with our reality filters and the effects of this are often miraculous. This, however, is a subject for another thread.

All the best everyone. And Endlessness, I love your critical mind and willingness to challenge beliefs... I merely suggest that you might have to expand this skepticism to things you think are rock solid as well. Even the laws of nature are not immune to the power of suggestion, and the FDA definition of a medicine vs a placebo is only 2 to 5% more effective.

Peace,
HF

HF, both me and burnt already analysed the supposed jungle spice and it had none of such things like saponins or tanins in detectable amounts. It was still mostly composed of DMT, plus a small amount of some beta carbolines of unknown psychoactivity (which may or may not be active at all, may or may not be active in the amounts present, or may or may not be inactive by themselves but be modulators of DMT experience). Even when you use naphtha and do a few pulls to supposedly exhaust it of DMT. The fact that supposedly DMT-exhausted jungle spice is still mostly DMT can be easily tested by anyone with TLC, don't just take my word for it

Regarding wine, there are dozens of experiment that show people cannot tell them appart like supposedly they do. Here's an article on it (with a kind of agressive though funny tone)

As for your experiment, you just mentioned a major flaw in your experiments that could account for the people telling the difference, which is the taste difference. You need to mask the taste by first infusing it in some strong tasting herb, otherwise your whole experiment results are not reliable. Also, that was blind (at least sort of), not double blind, where experimenter would also be unaware which is which. But even just a blind test should be enough to answer some things, if correctly done.

As for the chaliponga, yeah I analysed it and so did other people and there were no tryptamines appart from DMT in any significant quantities. There were some unknown minor peaks in my tests though, but they did not seem like tryptamines at all.. I would like to re-do these tests with some other chaliponga that people swear is different from mimosa, with a more powerful instrument.

HF, as mentioned, I don't have any vested interest in either side of the equation. So say for example I analyse one jungle spice that has only trace amount of different substances, and yet people can tell the difference appart and have reliably different experiences in a proper blind test. I would find that awesome, we would have to revise a lot of what we know regarding these substances and pharmacology. It would be a real breakthrough. If on the other hand, people can't tell appart, well, it would be awesome too, because we would see another example of how far our mind can fool us, and maybe this would make peopel act more carefully when making assumptions about these substances in the future.

When you mention i should question certain assumptions I make, I'm willing to question just about anything, so if you tell me any specific assumption I seem to be making that you think I'm not questioning, I'd be glad to hear

Well bro, I have no idea what the jungle spice you analyzed was in relation to mine. I can only say that if the only ingredient was DMT, it was not Jungle Spice.

With my stuff, there is clearly something leftover from a re-x and it is not DMT. If you found beta-carbolines, even in small amounts, that is not nothing.

TLC kits can not detect every possible ingredient as far as I know (esp. the so-called "inert" ingredients), so your test does not amount to anything exhaustive enough to challenge what is obvious... that if the spice were as purely DMT as you suggest, then there would not be so much purplish leftovers. Otherwise, what is all that red goo?

You're not suggesting that this substance is illusory are you?

We know that DMT is crystaline in its pure state... and white. The oily red stuff may not be tanins or saponins (that was a mere guess) and is probably only partly accountable by your mystery beta-carboline (which as a RIMA would have some effect).

My experiments may have not been clinical double blinds... but many times the person handing the pipes would not know which is which until we turned on the lights. (the pipes were generally identical by touch) And either way it wouldn't change anything.

The fact that the substances taste different is the point. That is why it is so easy to tell them apart. You might as well say that people can't tell Ajar aprat from Carbonera sauce if you add other ingredients to both to mask the taste.

Now if you want to change the "blind taste test" into a purely "blind effects test" that is another story. I still think they would be distinguishable... at least my spices would be. As I said, many people call spice jungle when it is not really very oily.

The last thing I will say, as I am basically finished with this subject for now... is that there are plenty of tests that show people can tell wines apart. Picking one that says they can't, proves nothing. There are even schools set up to teach wine tasting and regular competitions with winners who have succeeded at doing so.

And, I don't know anyone who can't tell white wine from red wine. If someone couldn't tell a Port from a Chardonnay, I would guess they have little or no working taste buds. You may as well say that people can't tell lemon juice from lime juice.

I never said my experiments were 100% conclusive... or that I had solved the Jungle Spice mystery. But I have done many dozens of tests... and I was always right. Take it as you will.

HF

"We know that DMT is crystaline in its pure state... and white"

DMT is polymorphic. I agree with the rest of your post.

It's not that I think your tests are not 100% conclusive, it's that, the way you described them, they have such a fundamental methodological flaw that they are IMHO 0% conclusive. Anybody that cares for science will first and foremost review the methodology of any supposed scientific test to see if the conclusions reached by authors are reasonable, and in this case, I don't think they are. No offense to you of course...

I did not test these substances with TLC only, I tested them with gas chromatography and mass spectrometry, burnt also tested with GC-MS as well as with LC-MS. Just because something has a different macroscopic look does NOT necessarily mean it has a very big difference in it's content. Even trace amount of impurities and different forms of crystallization can affect how a substance look, including DMT.

And back to the methodology, the fact it smells different could be because of small differences in content, or maybe big differences in content, which could or could not result in psychoactive differences (this can only be answered with a propper blind method that hides that taste).

You said your jungle spice clearly is not DMT, but AFAIK you did not test it with even a rudimentary analysis method, so I put in question your claim because I have tested such things myself and know that even after doing naphtha pulls (which I assume is what you've done before reaching your conclusions, correct me if I'm wrong), a significant amount of DMT still remains in jungle.

Again, notice I am not claiming that there is no way someone can tell appart jungle from purified DMT, or chali from mimosa, or whatever else. I don't care either way truth shows itself up, but I do think people assume too much with too little evidence (or flawed experiments) and I'd like to see this done in the right way. When I have time and the possibilities, I'm gonna try doing this myself

No worries my brother.

I think we are talking apples and oranges.

I said I can tell Jungle from normal spice... and I can. The smell is a dead giveaway. You want to mask the smell and taste and thus eliminate the obvious difference. Naturally, this has little or nothing to do with what I have been saying.

I not only never said my experiments were clinical... I specifically said they weren't.

If your chemical analyses turns up anything interesting, I am sure you will post it... and I will be interested in that information.

The facts still remain that however impure, oily red goo is not identical to white crystals. Not in its appearance, and not in its constituents. They might be very similar, but they are not the same. This difference is easily noticeable in smoking the two. The aromatics are simply glaring. I stand by what I have said, and your continuing to twist what I am saying to make it into something else is pointless.

You don't do a taste test between Coke and Pepsi and say that they both have to be mixed with whisky to mask the taste. It makes no sense.

I may not have done any chemical analysis, but I have a lot of experience in making and consuming the various kinds of spices. I also have a large number of friends who have tried these extracts as well, and we are nearly all in agreement. Is this proof in a clinical sense? No. But, this is enough for me.

How different are these kinds of spices? I can't say for certain. I can only say that they are, in fact, different. You know that as well as I do. A small difference might result in a large difference in appearances, but no difference doesn't account for Jim Jam.

This is not going to be resolved by further talking. There is no way for us to verify that we are even dealing with the same substances. As I have said, what you and burnt have tested could bear little resemblance to what I call Jungle Spice. But even you must admit that no amount of suggestion or placebo makes white crystals into red oily goo. Or, I should say that the kind of suggestion that could do this, could also be responsible for every perception you have... including the laws of chemical analysis.

So, I am not sure what you are trying to prove by denigrating my experiments and experience.

Any fool can see they are different. And any fool can tell them apart by smell and taste...

Hehehee.

In addition to the obvious, most people in my circle feel they are subjectively different in experience, and this is backed up by the vast majority of people on the net... including those posting here on the Nexus. So, if you are making the claim that they are the same... I suggest that it is you who are making extraordinary claims, and thus you should find the proof you need.

I am already satisfied with mine. Being, as I am, far more interested and concerned with the experience of DMT than I am in the chemistry involved. I am a mystic, and my focus is on how we use spice. Even if the subjective experience was a result of self-suggestion (which I have not ruled out), it would matter only a very little in the way I use these materials.

And anyway, you have already admitted that they are not only not identical, but that you have found beta-carbolines in Jungle that are not found in white spice. (A class of chemicals we know to have a profound effect on DMT) You also seem to know that they smell and taste different or you wouldn't keep harping on the masking thing. Why then do you keep acting like it is some absurd claim that most psychonauts feel they can tell them apart?

No hard feelings bro. I think we agree on most parts of what you are saying. You know I love you.
HF